The Young Turks June 12, 2015 Hour 2

In Membership, The Young Turks Hour 2 - On Demand by klingbeil2152 Comments

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Hannah joins Cara, Ben and Cenk for SCS. Rachel Dolezal, the president of the NAACP chapter in Spokane, is accused of identifying herself as black on a city application. According to her birth certificate, she was born to white parents in Montana. LeBron James flashed the camera during NBA finals. The mid-game mishap caught on video that quickly went viral and could now lead to big consequences for ABC.

First man to have successful penile transplant conceives baby. Alamo man has sex with horse, gets his leg broken. Columbia University graduate Emma Sulkowicz publishes film which she warns “may resemble rape.”

Comments

  1. While Cenk didn’t make his case very well, his overall point is right on the money. The “In a Vacuum” argument could not of been any more annoying.

    1. Cenk’s point has some validity, but it feels like he’s seeing it from a “protect the man” perspective, because they’re the real victims here. Until the issue of rape and, more importantly to the artist, the legal system surrounding rape is an equal playing then I’d rather protect the powerless. To me the artist is saying, “I was raped in this way and it wasn’t defined as rape by the legal system, but I define it as rape.” I agree with her message there. Clearly, the legal system needs to protect people, because that’s not happening now.

  2. Cenk was on the money, great discussion, made me happy. It’s a beautiful thing when Cenk can be so right about something

  4. To use “appreciation of art irrespective of context” as an argument in this case, makes sense only as a diversion from the utterly failed logic Cara presents in the rape allegation story. It is clearly the context that gives this particular “art” piece any meaning. The sole reason for it being debated in the media is the context, and not the choice of colors or the production value of the piece.

    Cara is extremely ignorant and glazes over her own shallow understanding of subject matter after subject matter, by simply assuming she can throw out O’Reilly-type nonsense she concocted on the spot and still keep her audience. This happens in majority of her rants on religion, the economy and now rape. She is are smart enough to muddy the water and narcissistic enough to care about her image and prestige more than the actual truth and positive outcome of a discourse.

  5. I’ve never seen anyone debate and simultaneously calm Cenk down like that before. Well done Cara. Like a pro-fessional.
    Cenk’s points make sense in a lot of ways (although I agree more with the girls on this one), but I don’t know if I’ve ever seen him present his views in a worse way. That was pretty horrible to watch.

  6. Totally agree with Cenk here. Progressives recently have had alot of trouble because they tend to accept every accusation at face value. Hence, progressives end up rallying behind people with dubious stories. We need to do a better job of selecting people to carry the banner.

    Also the commentary that Cenk was being aggressive or other cohosts not giving eachother equal time is ridiculous nonsense. (1) It is fun to watch Cenk go off on stuff, and (2) it is great to see passionate debate on TYT. Hanna and Cara are grown ups and can fend for themselves. TYT doesn’t need to be sanitized into some sort of British tea time where we are super careful that everyone is treated daintily.

    1. +1

      I’m glad Cenk fought this insane “rape art” story. Ben seemed like he didn’t want to touch it with a 10 foot pole. But more likely, he’s smart enough to know 4 people talking over each other is not good tv.

      Cara is wrong when she says progressives have to go to the extreme as a protest to ignite change. It doesn’t always work – it only works when the protest is not more extreme than it is INTELLIGENT.

      If you want to laugh at another misguided feminist art, search youtube for “Interior Semiotics, Narrated”.

  7. No. Jimmy so I am not watching this but Cara did the both sides do it when it came to the rape story as well.

    Also LK’s wife said that mattress bitch wasn’t raped there is some other mental health problem she has and LK’s wife was raped twice in her life by to different males in two different bars.

  8. Reading through the YouTube comments it appears the vast majority of the TYT audience (which is statistically overwhelmingly male) sides with Cenk.

    One guy writes: “For once I actually agree with cenk and the two feminazis need to stfu and go back to school to cure their ignorance.” (upvoted 61 times) and another: “meh, if i wanted to know more about fake rape, I’d read 50 shades of grey, or more about the rush to injustice in the duke lacrosse ‘rape’ case, or on all those ‘I stand with Jackie’ feminists in the UVA ‘rape’ case,,. seems to be what ‘rape culture’ is all about anyways….. or is hearing more and more about ‘rape culture’ really about the 20 year decline in rape statistics? #feministlogic” (upvoted 218 times)

    So thanks for advancing and legitimizing that viewpoint, I guess …. What about when your daughter goes to college?

  9. Wow Cenk, that was some abhorrent commentary regarding a woman who may (or may not) be a victim of sexual assault. Does she also need four male witnesses necessary to prove that it was rape?

    The college had “adjudicated” the rape, whatever that means, but US justice system and college “courts” are NOT the same thing. Expecting amateur college panels to make sound judgments about felonies without access to forensic evidence or the ability to subpoena witnesses or get testimony under oath is unreasonable and naive. Being a fan of humanity’s insensitives and dis-insentives, consider what those might be for an Ivy League university struggling to attract donors and maintain its reputation.

    Now to the ridiculous projection of “Me man also! Me might have sex that is unintentionally too rough for the woman and be accused of rape too. Must defend man.” This is heinous. You don’t know what happened. You don’t know what it’s like to be a woman. You don’t know what it’s like to be hit on at college parties. You don’t know what it’s like to be significantly physically weaker when drunken guys (sometimes more than one at a time) try to corral you into an empty bedroom. If I had been raped in college and my “institution of higher learning” made some vague, neutral pronouncement instead of punishing the rapist I might have the same FUCK YOU attitude and try to call attention to the injustice myself. Maybe this is her way of seeking social/media justice since no institutional support is forthcoming.

    1. I agree that the police should handle cases like that. Rape is way too serious a crime. Interestingly though, Emma and her supporters don’t think so, because they think the justice system is too racist and unfair.
      You think the best way to combat rape is to just take all accusations at face value? Not all accusations are true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Banks_(American_football)
      You can also have your life ruined by false accusations.

      1. No, of course not “at face value.” Accusations of rape are an extremely serious matter and should be investigated properly. But here are some old numbers from 2012 (the rates have risen further) — “55% of about 1,570 colleges and universities with 1,000 or more students received at least one report of a forcible sex offense on campus in 2012. Such sex offenses include forcible rape, forcible sodomy, forcible fondling and sexual assault with an object. Overall, there were more than 3,900 reports of forcible sex offenses on college campuses nationwide in 2012, up 50 percent over three years.” – Beareu of Justice http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5176

        I’m going to make an educated guess that the number of men who get their “reputations ruined” by false accusations is much less than 3,900 per year. So which is the bigger problem? My larger issue with Cenk’s commentary is that he insists on shredding a potential rape victim as an attention whore as if he knows what happened and as if there can be only ONE psychological response to experiencing trauma.

        1. I agree with you entirely and find the comments here to the contrary disturbing and disappointing.

    2. I cringed hard at the jingoistic chest-thumping “BECAUSE I’M AN AMARICAN” rationle that he shouted down Hannah and Cara with. This moment was without question the most uncomfortable I’ve ever felt watching this show

      1. I’m 100% with you. I was really stunned and disappointed with Cenk’s unbelievably aggressive yelling and bizarre attempts to shut them down. I’m obviously pretty pro-TYT and I like Cenk – I’m not even particularly big fans of these women – but they handled this with poise and grace – Cenk handled it like a drunk conservative talk show host infuriated that someone would dare oppose him. People need to be able to disagree with Cenk without him flipping out and yelling at them, accusing them of being “unamerican.” Ugh. Nauseous. just.. wow.

    3. I am a woman and I am VERY anti rape. I agree with Cenk. What this woman did with this “art”. was to make porn. come on, you know guys will be wacking off watching violent sex. She is doing more harm to women.

      Once she made the tape it does make her look a LOT less credible.

  10. In my opinion this reminds me of Sean Hannity’s recent commentary about the police. Some police are good and not racist, therefore we should assume cops are right in racial situations. Ignore statistics, ignore facts, assume the black people had it coming. Apparently Cenk has the same view on women and rape. Assume they had it coming, until they can prove they didn’t. Maybe it’s just me but I feel the burden should be on the rape accused not the victim. If he’s really innocent he should be able to prove it. But stop attacking the victim and look at some statistics, Cenk.

    1. What good what looking at statistics do when we discuss this individual case?
      How is he supposed to prove that it was consensual, particularly when she only accused him months later? He showed their facebook communication, what else could he do?

      Victims are not just people who got raped. When you get your reputation ruined by false accusations, you are also a victim. We don’t know what really happened.

      1. I agree. False accusations are not only incredibly damaging to someone’s life (the accused) but do harm to the overall movement, because then those on the fence are inclined to be even more skeptical of future rape accusations. I also don’t really know what to believe in this case. I do know from talking with a lot of women, including a lawyer friend who works with abused women and women who have been raped, that they rarely report it. Historically, the blow-back for making accusations of rape have been swift and severe. Think about that… this is TYT, a really progressive environment – and even here these women Cenk was shouting down have been maligned and treated insultingly by listeners. (Not so much here, more in the youtube forums, where it’s been shocking.) There isn’t a whole lot of benefit to reporting rape, because by making the accusation you make yourself a target, and it’s almost impossible to prove in a court of law, because so often it boils down to a “he said she said” sort of situation.

        That being said, Cenk didn’t treat this like it was fuzzy. He treated it like because he didn’t believe the accuser, it was a done deal – and that because these women didn’t agree, they were somehow being ridiculous or “un-American.” It really wasn’t Cenk’s finest hour.

  11. Man. Damn. This is like being punched in the gut. I’ve never felt such disappointment. I had no idea Cenk had such hideous views around rape, and I’ve been listening to TYT ever since they started. This is a massive disappointment. Ahhhh goddamnit I feel sad. I always knew Cenk was completely braindead when it comes to sex but this is taking it to another level. Epically let down right about now. :-( :-( :-(

    1. I agree. I’ve been a faithful TYT subscriber for a very long time.

      For the first time ever, I came very close to cancelling my subscription.

    1. You are an IDIOT Cenk.
      She consented to sex and he threw her around like a rag doll, slapped her around and spit in her face and her plowed her up the ass, or whatever she said in her testimony.

      It wasn’t rape because she gave consent, the legal definition of rape is non consensual sex, men push the level of lewdness and violence during consensual sex. That is what she is trying to say.

      She became his property when she consented.

      Could she say it any clearer?

      Watch the video, that is what happened and it was found to be, “consensual”.

      It is not about the guy, he got off, double jeopardy. It is about the proceeding; that is what she is putting on trial.

      I am profoundly disgusted.

      1. Oh so because they made a video it must be 100% the way it went down?

        Why are you so sure she is right? Have you ever heard his side of the story? Have you read her facebook messages? It just seems really strange that first she didn’t report it and later on she started this campaign aimed at getting as much publicity as possible.

        You don’t think there’s a chance she just felt remorse or maybe she didn’t really enjoy anal sex and later on she convinces herself that this was rape, even though she didn’t say anything at the time? She’s also an art student. Is it inconceivable that she might have decided to make this up so she can turn it into an art project and later on into a career?

        What more could the guy do? He cooperated in the investigations and got acquitted. That’s not enough? We have to use vigilante justice?

        Finally, you say he got off. Did he? You don’t think this affected him in a negative way? You don’t think employers shied away from him because of that?

  13. Kind of scary to see the listen and believe narrative peddled without irony here.

    I’m always told that these views are just fringe radicals and don’t represent a majority of the third wave feminist movement, but here you have the two women hosts ardently defending a person who is almost certainly a liar and fraud.

    Earlier it was talked about how the left doesn’t hold any power. To shape a mainstream narrative antithetical to the notion of justice itself is great power indeed. I will always hold it better to have 9 guilty free than 1 innocent imprisoned.

  14. If the core reason for her sex video was trauma, or being raped in the past, there is no way in hell she would put herself through that again, even if just fictitiously, because her fears and emotions would just repel against it too much – it’s a similar concept to how we humans really overtly over protest or hate something more than the usual amount if it’s a traumatic event that’s happened to us in the past. There is no way she would make herself live through that again. I think Cenk understands this and this is why he is saying “No! I don’t believe that’s the reason”.

    Last item, did not like it when Cara tried to suggest this is not for guys, when of course it is. The whole “This is not rape” and the “I’m trying to change the world” stuff means she wants men to watch it to change their opinions, so I didn’t like it when Cara (once again) tried to make a disingenuous rebuttal of Cenk’s point). However, she did make a lot of other very good arguments so I don’t want to detract from that, but when she does disingenuous stuff, it really cheapens her arguments and obfuscates her motives.

  15. I was under the impression that the only “trial” held was done by Columbia University whose decision to find him “not responsible” is biased to say the least. Of course Columbia doesn’t want to admit they brush rapes under the rug or allow rapists to repeatedly offend.. He wasn’t held under the scrutiny of the law by a judge or a jury. He was found “innocent” in a fucking college misconduct meeting. I don’t like the video at all. It’s disturbing and when I read she did something like that I was disappointed. My disappointment however does not instantly lead me to believe she’s a fame whore looking to capitalize on her rape. How is what she’s doing any different from Elizabeth Smart releasing a memoir about her time in captivity? Secondly, it’s not uncommon for other victims to come forward once another person already has. They feel emboldened like maybe someone will actually believe them because it happened to someone else too. Super disappointed in Cenk for being so outraged against her. Theres a recurring theme that happens with Cenk not wanting to believe women that don’t immediately understand or report what happened to them. Rape is unlike any other crime out there. Some women or men don’t want to admit to themselves that they were assaulted or brutalized. The same thing was said during a story involving Lady Gaga. I don’t understand why its so difficult to understand that victims of sexual assault have trouble admitting to themselves what happened to them. That the way some cope with trauma is by pretending that it didn’t happen or by rationalizing it and blaming themselves. I also want to note that his name was released after she filed a police report.

    1. Very good points. I’m wondering if Cenk was cognizant of these items or if he overlooked them.

      However, some might argue that the reason it didn’t enter a criminal trial was because there was no where near enough evidence to enter or start a criminal trial, which suggests (but not with certainty) that the guy might be innocent.

      1. After the hearing at Columbia what I have read says Sulkowicz didnt want to pursue charges. I imagine she knew she was in for an uphill battle. I also never read anything about her sleeping with him again after he raped her. Rape in and of itself is a traumatic experience add on top of it being raped by someone you know, care about, and have a relationship with. Not only do you have to deal with the fact you were sexually violated you also have to deal with the fact that the person that hurt you in such a terrible way was your friend. I imagine the feelings and actions of a woman after she’s raped in a dark alley by an unknown attacker is varies from the feelings and actions of a woman who was raped by someone she trusted. I don’t like the video. Im torn about it. If she was more clear with her message maybe it wouldn’t be perceived the way its being perceived. This idea that women conspire together and make up rape claims for attention is so sickening to me and feeds into every misogynistic stereotype thats oppressed women for decades. So to say he is matter of fact innocent because Columbia University did some bullshit hearing is ridiculous. How many stories have been done about colleges mishandling those cases and hearings? Treating the victims like they’ve done something wrong or bullying them into not pressing charges.

        1. Good points once again, I think it’s important for every man to try to genuinely imagine what it would be like for a woman in these circumstances, because if we did I think we’d be more understanding of the trauma and suffering they go through. I imagine most men don’t even try to do this, but as a guy who’ll never be able to fully imagine what it’s like for a girl, it’s all the more reason we need to try harder to understand the nuances and intricacies.

          1. Rape and sexual trauma are such complicated issues.. The points he made sounded like they could be in a Sean Hannity segment. I just expect more from him i guess.

      2. I can only go off of what I’ve read, but if the various accounts are correct, it sounds like the university doesn’t do much of a job at all of assessing this stuff. I don’t think it can be used as a yardstick either way.

    2. Are you kidding me? College kangaroo courts go out of their way to be biased toward the accuser in sexual assault cases.

      51% preponderance of evidence standard. No counsel (i.e. actual lawyer) for the accused. Defense not allowed to cross examine accuser.

      Consequences? Accused expelled and most likely loses the opportunity for higher education elsewhere. 51% preponderance of evidence standard. Ridiculous for such consequences.

      They fall over themselves in order to comply with title IX to the point where all due process rights of the accused are washed away lest their federal funding gets taken away.

  16. I’ve literally moved all of Greg Guttfelds book out of the front display at Target. More reasons to love Ben.

  18. Cara Santa Maria is wonderful.

    Please have her back on all the time. They started to cover a story that dealt with art and once again Cenk loses his shit, because he doesn’t like art, doesn’t understand art and always lashes out at it angry at his inability to understand it and almost always assumes it must have to do with sex, because for Cenk everything relates back to his cock. BUT thankfully it wasn’t Ana there, who also never understands art, but wonderful Cara Santa Maria who was able to push back on his stupidity with cogent, correct interesting arguments.

    Please from now on, every time you think “let’s get karamo brown tonight” first take a staple gun and fire one staple into your hand, and watch it bleed while you chastise yourself for your stupidity and then remember that you want Cara to host instead.

    1. Two things I found annoying about Cara, she didn’t let Hannah speak, I wanted to see what else Hannah had to say and Cara would not let her speak at all, which is really annoying since she isn’t the arbiter of knowledge.

      Secondly, that trick she tried to pull on everyone, re assessing this by using tunnel vision, in a tunnel etc… trying to get everyone to discard the points of contention (the history of this masculine feminist) since intent here matters completely when assessing Cenk’s point. Of course, this did not fly by Ben and he pretty much told her that it’s bullshit what she is saying (but in a PC way).

      Even if Cara is correct re the art must be assessed in a tunnel thing, we aren’t just assessing the art here, Cenk is assessing her motives. Of course, if you want to just assess the art on its own, you can – but Cara should not tell people they must entirely and try to use this disingenuous point to hide and avoid the greater argument that Cenk was trying to have.

      However, apart from those nuanced issues, I agreed with points on both sides of the argument including Cara’s.

      1. Oh come on, if anyone hogged the spotlight it was Cenk. It’s always Cenk because it’s the Cenk show, starring Cenk. Cara had some valid points to make, and I agree they should have her on as often as humanly possible… although I ultimately disagree with her take on the not-rape-reenacment video.

        I saw that video, and it’s incredible to me how anyone could cry rape over that. If you’re not into rough sex, just don’t have rough sex. If you are into it, learn the meaning of “safe word”. Don’t tell the guy “hit me! hit me again!” and then accuse him of rape because he hit you during sex.

        Also, the video itself doesn’t seem to me like a traumatized victim’s way of dealing with her harrowing experience. I’m afraid Cenk’s take on things is more likely to be true.

        1. I agree with the things you are saying except the first item, if you look at time spent talking, Cenk barely spoke. In fact, even if you ad Cenk, Hannah and Ben’s talking time together it would either just equal or be slightly less than the time Cara spent monopolizing the conversation and talking. This was my main issue, she didn’t let anyone speak and placed a lot of logical trickery into her arguments. It only appeared like it was about Cenk because he was loud and emotional, but he spent much less time talking than Cara.

          I’m not saying I agree or disagree with her, she had good points as well, just saying (as a side note) that I didn’t appreciate some of her stylistic choices re the disingenuous arguments.

          I can’t really hold a solid opinion because I’ve missed the details of the actual/previous story.

          2. You could be right, I haven’t seen the segment since last night, and I agree Cara wasn’t at her best – many of those arguments did sound disingenuous. It’s just that Cenk annoys me when he starts shouting to prove a point – NOO, NOO, SHE MADE IT ALL UUUP, YOU GUUUYS – and then I’m inclined to support any sort of rebuttal.

            As to the story itself, the actual video and the nonsensical disclaimer are at http://www.cecinestpasunviol.com

      2. I wrote my comment before Cenk went on his screaming tirade. If you’re referring to that moment, then Cenk was the one who wouldn’t let people talk. Cara stepped in for Hannah who was clearly flustered that Cenk was screaming at her that this woman was lying about her rape and he’s her boss and she was upset by what he was saying but not sure how to respond and so Cara who was less intimidated by Cenk’s rape victim shaming tirade stepped in. She wasn’t not letting her talk. She was helping.. Other than that, I don’t see where Cara didn’t let Hannah speak.

        Cenk, on the other hand was turning bright red screaming about how a college had “adjudicated” the rape and therefore its settled, when we know there is an epidemic of rape on college campuses and the colleges are helping to cover it up to save their reputations. Anyone who says that kangaroo court settles the rape question is just looking for an excuse to blame the victim. The court didn’t settle that he didn’t rape her. The court merely could not produce evidence to say he did. Rape is almost never possible to adjudicate even in a real court where both parties have the same resources because often there were only two witnesses, the rapist and his victim and they tell different stories. On balance, therefore, we believe the victim, and if actual evidence shows up that the victim was lying, then we throw every punishment available at them, because those people are the scum of the earth who make it harder for real victims to get justice.

        Cenk, though, was visibly angry, I think, because of the art. He never understands art. He hates it because he doesn’t understand it, and this art involved a rape victim using sex, and deep down in his lizard brain, the part of him that was conservative and still is, wants this woman to cry and be hurt playing the role of rape victim on his terms, so he can turn that anger outward and scream at the world. She didn’t though. She carried that mattress around campus calling attention to herself, which is hard and an act of strength, and deep down I think that bothers Cenk like it bothers most men when women don’t fit the roles that they want them to, and then when she explored her rape through art that depicted her in a sexual way, Cenk lost it, because now she’s dealing with in a way he just can’t understand and it’s on her terms, and it involves sex which in his mind she can only approach in a few ways along the scripts he approves of. I think that’s why he got so angry and starting screaming. It was a combination of ancient male female dynamics and his irrationality when it comes to art he doesn’t understand, which is most art.

        1. All true, and I didn’t appreciate Cenk’s childish aggressiveness either.

          However… If you look at the video, and assume that it’s an accurate representation of what Sulkowicz claims to have happened, her position becomes almost untenable. The guy deserves blame only if he unilaterally decided to take off the condom, but for slapping her when she directly asks him to? Stopping half a minute after she said “stop”, even though she was egging him on seconds earlier? And that’s her side of the story?

          That’s a bullshit accusation, whether she later turns it into a performance piece or not.

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