Jimmy Dore, Stef Zamorano, Steve Oh & Malcolm Fleschner. Facebook censorship and its unintended consequences. DNC reverses ban on donations from fossil fuel PACs. Democrats lambast Green Party for spoiling special elections.
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I was informed by the Friday Post Game that there was shouting in this episode. I’m here now with my popcorn. 9 minutes in and Jimmy has swayed me more to his side with his clarification on free speech vs freedom of speech. Anxiously awaiting the dramz, and the inevitability of being pulled back to Steve’s side re: comments below.
Jimmy argues a lot using “what aboutism”, drives me nuts. Good job Steve. Jimmy was just not able to wrap his brain around the nuance Steve brought to this.
I think what needs to made clearer is Jimmy views YouTube, facebook etc as monopolies and should be regulated as utilities for that reason. Like how electricity, telephones, and water are monopolies and private companies, but are regulated as utilities. Monopolies are only allowed in America when they are utilities. In some ways this is great because we dont need 12 different sets of power lines around the city, but in other ways might disrupt the free market and those who value free market economics. I think treating these online services as utilities is an interesting idea but I would like to hear it fleshed out more. For example Steve mentioned what happens if someone in a foreign country uses these services maliciously? Do they have to go to the US to use american YouTube utilities and american courts to hear cases regarding their use? Do people really want the government to tell them what they can and cannot put on YouTube since it would then be public? Right now I like the idea of internet service providers being public utilities but to see certain services such as YouTube become utilities? I’m just not sure how that work and what the details of it would be, though I would like to explore the idea more.
Love Jimmy, but I’m with Steve on this. Can we have Matt Taibbi on?
In my opinion, Steve Oh is a “low information” progressive. He proved that he is not well informed when a few weeks ago he expressed surprise that Julian Assange was so “hated by everyone” in MSM, and also admitted that he basically didn’t follow or watch much news anyway. So its no surprise that he does not comprehend Jimmy’s arguments against “secret” algorithms, and that the issue is not so much about Alex Jones’s expulsion per sae, BUT the lack of transparent procedural process and lack of transparent procedural fairness on social media platforms could ultimately result in the de-platforming of companies such as TYT without a process of impartial appeal.
I question the degree to which YouTube, twitter, or itunes are monopolies. Facebook I can see the argument that it is effectively a monopoly. But there are plenty of viable alternatives to the others. But actually I don’ think the solution is all that complex. I think that they should be forced to specify exactly what rules have been violated, and where. Then remove those particular videos, and make a transparent “strikes” system, with an independent appeals route. That should take care of 99% of the problems. This of course will require a fair degree of investment by the companies, but not like they can’t afford it.
Steve wins this one
This is what I have been waiting for from TYT! I LOVE THE PASSION! I’m all in for Jimmy, but he is misguided on this argument with Steve. I was actually in agreement with Jimmy beyond Ana making her comments on Alex Jones in the flagship show, but Steve actually swayed me to another position and the fact he doesn’t yield is the icing on the cake.
That’s my Aggressive Offensive Progressives!
Keep up the healthy debates PLEASE!
That whole exchange between Jimmy and Steve was cringe inducing. Jimmy ignores Steve’s points, straw mans, and breezes past the common ground they share then goes off the rails yelling in his co-hosts face. I can’t believe the way Jimmy condescendingly berated Steve “and you’re a lawyer?!!?” when Steve was totally correct. And you host a news show, Jimmy!??!! Don’t ever do that to a co-host again, it was so unprofessional, and uncalled for. I love when you get amped and go on rants, but save it for the establishment. There’s zero need to attack Steve like that. Jimmy get’s tunnel vision a lot, and can throw a large blanket over these nuanced issues. That plus his repetitiveness has had me watching the Majority Report more than his personal show lately.
I like both Steve and Jimmy, but hopefully Jimmy takes this as a teachable moment, learns and grows from it. Because in this exchange Jimmy’s arguing is too basic and limited. And Steve don’t let him off the hook, Jimmy’s the one who should be buying you lunch after this exchange, even if you did get the last word.
You’ve got to realize that both FB and Google are private companies with their own terms of service. It’s not a democracy, so they don’t have to exercise “free speech”, and yes they CAN kick you off if they don’t like you (like it or not). You can protest it if you don’t agree, but ultimately its their decision.
However, like Steve said, they have their processes, and Alex Jones got his fair share of warnings against hate speech. He didn’t obey, so he’s gone. If you don’t like the way FB or YT operates, then yare FREE to start your own site and publish your contents there.
Good job Steve. He need to be back on the show more. As of late, the show has been an echo chamber for Jimmy’s ranting. He’s not wrong about the core of his argument, but there’s no such thing is unfettered free speech. Companies can curate content on their platform as long as they’re not doing political censorship. When individuals like Alex Jones slanders and incites violence against people, that is against their terms of service and the law. Also, I felt insulted for Steve when Jimmy accused him about being “intellectually lazy” when Jimmy was the one not taking into account many aspects that work against his own argument. He sort of addresses the concept of those platforms being private companies by briefly saying they are big enough to be considered public utilities, but that does not trump the fact that they are indeed private companies. Also, while he argues that situation is an attack on the first amendment, he doesn’t ever bring up the fact that what Jones was being kicked out for was not protected under the first amendment. You can argue that is simply an excuse by those platforms, it is not a baseless one. He violated their terms of service repeatedly. What happened to Jones was definitely warranted and if you want to say that it was a veiled attack on the first amendment, sure, but you have to acknowledge the facts on the other side. Otherwise, the argument comes off as a ideologically shallow.
What’s stopping Alex Jones from suing the companies who deplatformed him and having the 1st amendment deliberated in a court of law?
The terms of service agreements, the videos of his thinly veiled racists rants, and the lawsuits against him for slandering and inciting harassment against family of Sandy Hook Victims. Pretty sure when taking into account these things, even half to quarter ration judges would throw out the case.
Love Jimmy!!
But Steve wins on this one.
The best goddamn Aggressive Progressive. I got downright scared of all the shouting. It was awesome.
TYTeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!
Steve’s best point was that newspapers always pre-screened content.
You can’t go to a newspaper and say I want this printed and you have to print it unless you take me to court and sue me to stop it.
Now if you really wanted something out there, you could print it yourself and distribute it yourself and that is protected speech.
So this secret process that Jimmy is losing his mind over has always existed.
I love Jimmy. But he let’s his passion cloud his vision and judgement and he is losing credibility every time he does so.
Jimmy for fucks sake if you are chemically dependent on cannabis for pain relief and sleep you need to medicate at least two hours before and no more than four hours before going on air. Add two more hours to that spec if you are using edibles.
You came off like a pothead lunatic. You discredited the TYT brand. AGAIN!!
Hit the mellow backside of the plateau, not the manic ramp up and not the irritable pit of withdrawal. Manage your meds like an adult.
You needs to get a grip mon. Seriously.
I gotta agree with Steve on this one. There are already limits to freedom of speech BY LAW. You cannot go into a crowded theater and tell fire or promote violence or a riot. That’s already established law. I also agree that the Alex Jones thing is COMPLETELY different than some of the left wing pages being taken down. Alex Jones promotes violence against PRIVATE individuals, as well as some media people. I wish the platforms would have used this excuse, which is legit, instead of the bullshit one they did use. Now taking down a page because they are “potentially Russian” is stupid, but if they were telling firebomb Dick Cheney’s house, take their asses down. That’s not right. But I’m tired of everyone talking like Alex Jones was this innocent person that’s getting taken down because he said something against the GRAIN. NO!! He promotes violence and HAD been warned SEVERAL TIMES to stop. He’s being sued because of it, for fuck sake. It all doesn’t fit in this cozy little box and Steve is right. But Jimmy, it makes y po u look like an asshole when you only shout over people and the reason why other leftists like the Majority Report LOVE shitting all over you. Calm down and realize you’re not always right.
Oh my god Jimmy stop. You sound like a fucking Fox news host ignoring the logical argumentation and just talking over the person you’re talking to. Stop, dude.
I love you Jimmy, but youre only half right at best on this one. Jones has doxxed people, he has called for violence against the government and countless other people. I get it that its a liytle fishy that all of them banned him at the same time but comparing his ban too suspensions is disengenous. Because he has been suspemded twice from youtube and that was the last strike so hes done.
42 minutes….incredible. Just incredible.
Just viewing. And at 28 minutes; proud of you’s guys.
Say it loud, eh!
Jimmy had the guy backed into a corner and the FUCKING FOOL had no response because his arguments were SHIT… so “we’re done, we’re done”. What a fucking pussy. He contradicts himself constantly at he tries to spout his bullshit apologetics for multi billion dollar media companies. Fuck that guy!
Steve is such a hypocrite. From his own mouth: If youtube suspends you, take it up with youtube. Straight face.
Even scarier is the users on Steve’s side.
Hatred for Alex Jones and lunatic croney capitalism has blinded liberals. Facebook & Google are already public utilities (monopolies), they are just not regulated by law as such. They control information, and if you defend them like Steve then you are horrible – a complicit monster which threatens to destroy our democracy.
No American should have any opinion other than to demand the complete and total seizure of Amazon, Google, Facebook, et. al. These are the greatest terrorists in history who already harm and threaten to entirely destroy The United States, Democracy, Freedom of Information, Free Speech, and even the entire world.
It is indeed exactly like the electric company shutting you off for no valid reason.
Steve is also full of so much fallacy. Stop fucking acting like Google cant do literally anything and everything. Their revenue and profit scales with their size. Millions of videos are easily monitored by this Monolith. They could literally employee tens of thousands of people to do it all manually if they wanted. Their wealth is enormous. I am not saying that is best – I al saying Steve is full of shit to pretend like an open platform (a monopoly & public utiloty) cant be monitored. Revenue scales with power Steve.
Steve is also full of shit acting like it is too big to be a part of our legal system. You could make this argument for any crime. “SEATBELT VIOLATIONS? ASSAULT?
RAPE? TOO MANY FOR POLICE TO ENFORCE THESE LAWS!”
BULLSHIT!
Finally, I will end this by calling bullshit on Youtube Kids and ToS content. Minor-Protection can be easily exempt from normal process. Argument Fallacy Steve.
Great show today guys!
a quick not before I come back with a more strident take down of Steve’s corporate cock sucking
go back and watch some of the AP’s when Steve is on – his corporate excuse making is directly proportional to his reliance of his livelihood upon what corporation he’s excusing … he has Google/YouTube & Facebook cock so far down his throat that all that comes out of his mouth in regards to this is nauseating … he sold out them and now he protects them
to the morons claiming this isn’t freedom of speech because it pertains to corporations … it’s about FREE SPEECH not Constitutionally protected speech you mindless pieces of shit … the fact that no one understands the capitalist propaganda they are regurgitating is amazing
to quote one of Jimmy’s idol’s Bill Hicks: “It’s not about freedom – it’s about money. If you think you’re free try going somewhere without money.”
I’ll be back to eviscerate the corporate cock sucker later
note … a quick note
I really need to reread when I post angry ;-)
Steve and these TYT members truly have no idea theyre spewing capitalist propaganda. To them, it makes sense and their arguments legit because they dont take that one additional step to question whether or not capitalism, in this context, is inherently wrong.
Steve must be buying some of those “pecker pills” off of the Alex Jones Infowars site compared to his usual 50 shades of grey. Good energy in the room but a little less bullying and respect would improve the various debates.
That being said, the 3-4 distributors of social media are gargantuan now and just plain monopolies and need to be controlled with a proper ajuducation process. There were a few good suggestions in these comments to look at.
Saying a corporation can do what it wants is a surrender to and can be likened to“Corporations United” which now obliges just about every Congressman to have to spend inordinate time dialing for dollars distracting them from the duties of their office and their constituents ( ie bought )
Take down an innaccurate hateful article with a 90 day appeal period but do not tke down complete
platforms. Without reasonable controls. this is Fascism,
Jimmy is completely wrong.
1.) What happened to Alex Jones isn’t censorship…
– Corporations have and should have a right to ban or kick anyone from their system. If I created a website platform with a set of rules for any user that joins it. Those rules must be followed. Anyone that brakes those rules will be kicked or banned from my platform. There is no place for the government to come in and tell me I cannot run *MY* platform the way I want to.
– If I was to have a guest over my house, I expect that guest to follow the rules within my home. If they start shouting cuss words in my home, then I should have the right to kick that guest from my home. Facebook’s *PRIVATE* platform is something they should have the full right to dictate what the rules. It’s their system, they created, people *HAVE* the *OPTION* to join that system and therefore must follow the rules of that system.
– Alex Jones and Infowars does the exact same thing within their platform / website. ( https://mashable.com/2018/08/07/infowars-terms-of-service-ironic-censorship/ ) So, what? Are we now going to have the government step into Alex Jones’s website / platform and tell him he cannot ban any users that didn’t follow his rules? Hell no, He should have the right to do that as the platform owner and creator. I’ll be damned to let the government come into any private platform / service and tell them what they can and cannot do.
2.) Your argument of it being a “Free Speech” issue as why we should have government come in steps into “Freedom of Expression”
– Anyone that keeps saying this is a “free speech” issue. Sorry to burst your bubble, but it isn’t. And if you think we should have the government come in and say what people or corporations can and cannot do within the systems / platforms they created for private uses, then your stepping into a whole new issue over the freedom of expression. You can bet your life savings I’ll be the one to fight against you politically if going to advocate for that.
Side point: This is why I hated watching this show on TYT.
– Whenever Steve or someone like Steve isn’t there to challenge Jimmy on what he’s advocating for, this becomes nothing but a circle jerk into such crazy points.
– This was the perfect time for Steve to be on and interject Jimmy’s arguments. The guy is basically advocating for government control over private entities and the online systems / platforms they create. While I’m bummed that Steve didn’t exactly argument that point. It was refreshing to see him stop Jimmy in his tracks about how ridiculous of idea he’s trying to make.
– Conservatives always try to (though we know how hypocritical they can be too…) argue about not letting the government come in and dictate every little thing in our lives. And they always fear monger about how the left is always trying to do this. And Jimmy, this is what exactly they’re talking about. The fact that you don’t even realize it is astounding
Were you not listening? It’s the principle of free speech. Facebook and YouTube SHOULD BE REGULATED to prevent privet censorship. THESE COMPANIES HAVE BECOME TOO POWERFUL! What do you not understand about the principle of free speech? The first amendment SHOULD extend to multi-billion dollar media companies because their size allows them to engage in massive censorship. Why would they not use that power for profit? can we really afford to allow billionaires to decide what is “fake news”? TYT could be next on the chopping block and we still have partisan HACKS that hate Alex Jones so much that they are willing to risk their freedom. I ALSO HATE ALEX JONES, but I don’t allow that hatred to blind me.
———————————
“Were you not listening? It’s the principle of free speech. Facebook and YouTube SHOULD BE REGULATED to prevent privet censorship.”
———————————
Apparently you haven’t listened as well.
This isn’t a Free speech issue because Alex Jones still can go somewhere else and cry about the world being burned by aliens. He broke rules within a private company online platform. He’s banned from those platforms. This has nothing to do with the Government, nor shall the Government get involved all because Facebook has a hard time enforcing their polices & rules within their platform.
Unless you can definitively show me how your’s and my tax dollars is being used to create, maintain, and run Facebook or YouTube. You, Me, Nor the Government shall have no right to come into someone’s private platform or system and tell them what they can and cannot do. Just like how we think the Government shall have no right to tell You, Me, Or Bob and Sally down the street who they can have sex with and cannot.
———————————
“THESE COMPANIES HAVE BECOME TOO POWERFUL!”
———————————
– Their powerful because you make them out to be powerful. If you don’t like how the enforce the rules within their systems, then you can leave their platforms just like you had the option to join them. No one forced you to sign up for a facebook account, nor anyone isn’t forcing you to stay on the platform.
If you choose to stay on those platforms, the zip it and deal with the problems those companies have. It’s their systems, they need to figure it out.
I should have to spend extra tax dollars just to have the government come in and police / audit a system some corporation or person created.
———————————
What do you not understand about the principle of free speech?
———————————
I understand more than you apparently.
Your advocating for this is just like those fundamentalist that have a hard time understanding what their church does, does not mean nor does not grant them right for them to dictate what I can and cannot do within my personal life.
You have a hard time understanding these issues are strictly within private company and the systems they created. Just because a lot of people *CHOOSE* to use them doesn’t mean the government can come in and start telling everyone what they can and cannot do.
———————————
The first amendment SHOULD extend to multi-billion dollar media companies because their size allows them to engage in massive censorship.
———————————
The first amendment SHOULD only apply to the actions happening in public. YouTube, Facebook and all the above are PRIVATE platforms with their own rules.
Just like how the government has no right to come into my house and tell me what I can and cannot say or do, They SHALL NOT have any right to come into my systems or platforms and tell me what I can and cannot do. That’s borderline dictatorship at that point.
———————————
Why would they not use that power for profit?
———————————
Their powerful because everyone *CHOOSES* to use them. They have no power if you choose not to use them. IF you continue to use them even knowing you have the option of leaving their platform. What they do with the power you gave them is all on you.
———————————
an we really afford to allow billionaires to decide what is “fake news”?
———————————
Is Facebook coming into my web platform and telling me what I can and cannot say?
– No
Is Facebook coming into my platform and telling me what is and isn’t fake news?
– No
Is Facebook allowed to tell me what is and isn’t fake ***WITHIN THEIR SYSTEM***?
– Yes, and that’s should be their right since it’s their system. If I don’t like what they’re doing then I can do the same thing I did to get on their in the first place. *CHOOSE TO LEAVE*
———————————
TYT could be next on the chopping block and we still have partisan HACKS that hate Alex Jones so much that they are willing to risk their freedom. I ALSO HATE ALEX JONES, but I don’t allow that hatred to blind me.
———————————
Your being blinded into allowing the government to come into any private platform or system and dictate what people can and cannot do within their systems. All under the false pretenses of “Free Speech” when this isn’t a free speech issue.
The issue is those companies don’t know how to get their shit together and enforce the rules they set for their platforms. That’s all on them and not for You, Me nor the Government to solve. They created those system. They have the problems with them, so they need to be the ones to fix it.
If you don’t like the end result of it, then you can leave those platforms.
So if Someone goes on Facebook and starts harassing little girls and little boys and manipulating them to the point to where they get those children to share their address and school location that will then put that little kids life in danger you’re telling me that Facebook should do nothing about that? They have to wait until something terrible happens before they kick them off the site? And in Alex Jones is jimmy forgetting that something terrible already did happen with pizzagate? Did he not read about the constant death threats the owner of that shop received because of Alex Jones? Until one day he almost lost his life. And after that, even though it was and Alex Jones fan that did that because he believed what Alex Jones said, Infowars was STILL NOT TAKEN DOWN!!! It has taken this long where now parents of the victims for Sandy Hook who already lost little children of theirs now have to move from state to state because of what Alex Jones has sent people out to believe and do but Jimmy thinks he shouldn’t be taken down from a private companies website?? That’s bullshit. I’ve been saying this for a while, Jimmy has gone so far left then he’s gone around a circle and finds himself at the right wing.
Ps: Jimmy gets to a more nuanced position to his credit. But that why I appreciate Steve not just rolling over like everyone else does on Jimmy’s shows. Nicely done Steve.
I think Steve is right. There’s a real world out there. Not everyone is in on some big evil conspiracy to kill free speech. People are just trying to find the right balance. Difficult and nuanced decisions to be made.
Meanwhile Jimmy deals in absolutes. And only a sith deals in absolutes. He is a well intentioned fool in my opinion.
This was a show that I have been waiting for for a long time. I have to admit that I watch about 2 minutes of TYT’s main show each one to two months. I cannot stand their Russia-Gate theories and their Trump bashing, since they are missing something. Or they are not missing something, and everyone else is missing the facts in front of them. First of all, Trump is a distraction. I watched some Trump Roasts, and you could say whatever you wanted about him, but there was one thing off limits. You couldn’t talk about his money. He was probably a millionaire most of his life, and now he is a billionaire with all of his dishonest business deals. But, Hillary made $3 billion in her life that she has declared. Believe, there is plenty more in Swiss banks. And Donny has much more now, so you can make fun of him all you want. You Cucks have never understood the fundamental rule of the game. Trump is a distraction. Did anybody notice what Michele Wolf was able to get away with at the Press Corpse dinner? She made fun of his money. So ipso facto, Trump has been stealing so much he doesn’t care about that anymore.
Second, when you talk about Russia, you are defending WAR. I found it suspicious that Steve came in late on the segment and he laid into Jimmy and agreed with the position of Facebook. And Jimmy said point blank, as CEO of a media company he agrees with this? I think that cut through the huge charade that TYT has become. They are new court jesters, but in the old days, the court jesters were able to mock the king as advocates for the people. Our new court jesters are to mock the king as advocates to distract the people for the Deep State. The CIA has infiltrated every aspect of our media, and they are pushing us towards accepting more WAR. I am a huge fn of TeleSur. But the US is going to war with the Bolivar States. As you have gone to war with 143 countries. Don’t you know that WWIi never ended?
After WWII, the Dulles Brothers recruited the efficient Nazis into the CIA and the State Department. We have been invading other countries starting in Italy or Greece in 1946, and we have never looked back. After the Korean War, which was declared a loss for the Army, the Air Force started their winning streak. They bombed 20-30 million Koreans to bits. Viet Nam, Laos, Cambodia…No Comment. Grenada, santo Domingo, Every African and South American Country and don’t forget the rest of Asia. I went with my dad into some weapons factories in the 1960’s since he worked for the Air Force, and I thought I was meeting people without souls. And I was right. We just passed the dates we remember the Atomic bombs of Japan. But they told a lie, saying that Japan was the only country to suffer the blasts. Bullshit. I met people from St.Geroge’s, Utah that suffered multiple fallouts from tests. One guy was my age, 25 years at the time, and he had many friends that had already died. He was waiting for his turn. For what? When I hear Cenk give his rant about our country being a great country, I am sorry but I have another viewpoint. And I was in Colorado when they tested a huge A-Bomb blast to release a gas deposit in Colorado. That was the first Fracking experiment. And America was supposed to be an ally of the US military!
All this talk about a political season coming up? Jimmy had a segment on voting machines. All I can say is when you talk about the results, I change the channel and shout CUCKS.
BTW I am disappointed by the quality of the average TYT viewer. I have offered to quit when my last contribution runs out in February. There are a few comments where I think that you are Woke. The others can go back to sleep.
What if my power company had terms of service that said I couldn’t use their electricity to charge my flesh light, and they warned me three times already – should that mean the electric company can cut me off permanently from access to electricity? Because if charging my flesh light were illegal, then that would be an issue for law enforcement and not the power company.
What if my phone company had terms of service that said I couldn’t discuss the usage of my flesh light, and they warned me three times…
Another “straw man” argument because your electricity and phone company ARE public utilities and are regulated by the government.
To repeat what Steve has said, Facebook (et al) are NOT public utilities, whether you think they should be or not, and when you register to use those platforms, you are agreeing to their terms of service.
If you do not want to agree to their terms of service, don’t use the damn platform.
Your argument Makes no sense
so i’d just like to invite both steve and jimmy to do coffee with me the next time they’re in san francisco. steve really needs to get educated on this stuff and i feel i could add something to the conversation; i used to work for myspace back when it was still a thing. i was a founding member of a team of liaisons between the site’s full user response department (something no social network has had since, unfortunately) and the rest of the website’s legal team. steve, with respect, you’re hopelessly clueless to how these companies run vs how they could and should be run. i don’t want to waste a bunch of time in comments though, so feel free to get ahold of me via my website at larsbamble.com if any of you happen to read this. seriously. we should get together and talk because TYT is gonna seriously end up fucking itself in the ass if it doesn’t change course on some of these issues and learn from the mistakes of these other companies.
Side note – I feel like cues could be picked up better if everyone had their laptops closed (I like that Steve didn’t have one out.) The light tends to be distracting and the presence of all that probably takes away on some level from the human interaction and conversation. Maybe write your notes down on paper so everyone sees eye to eye without the distraction. Love you guys so much!
Sorry, Alex Jones needed to be taken off the air and social media. He’s a public safety hazard. He tricks people. He’s a shout of “FIRE” in a crowded movie theater. Good riddance and I’m not about to sit here defend this buffoon’s “free speech”.
I think Malcom is the clearest and best. I think that Facebook, Twitter and Google should be able to move and take things down immediately, but they shouldn’t control the appeals process. Too often the monopoly just agrees with their original decision, but will fold if there is enough of a pubic backlash which make their actions very inconsistent and hard to follow. I don’t think that the appeals process needs to be in court (ideally it would, but for expediency), but all of the evidence needs to be public, the judge(s) needs to be impartial and the charges need to be clear.
I think they didn’t want Jill Stein digging into the election results because it showed that if all the Jill votes went to Hillary, she STILL would have lost Michigan to Trump. And they lose their beat-stick for Progressives come next election.
Also, if they don’t dig into other independent party votes, they can somehow deny that there are any number of people who hate both parties. It’s a way of “I can see you! LaLALALAlalALALALALA.”
Then it can all be swept away till next election.
When they will blame/shame Progressives AGAIN for the DNC-Dems’ own incredible suckitude.
* CAN’T see you*
You cant yell “FIRE” in a theater or “BOMB” on a plane you cant strip naked in the town square or scream out that you’ll be best buds with anyone who kills the president or left handers and I agree with Mr. Oh about the lightly veiled child pornography on YouTube. am a long time fan and I agree with you on the fact that the system is openly building the scaffold in the open, in the front yard for all to see while they gather all our neck sizes from our meta data. Every one just seems like no big deal, it will never get that far or the system will never turn its sight on me.
makes me want to scream wake up, look up, stand up be counted before they give you if your lucky “Noose or Yolk” .
Steve Oh is NOT a progressive! He defends too much ‘establishment’ rhetoric. There’s ‘freedom of speech’ or there’s not. I’m sad to realize (again) that Steve Oh does NOT get what free speech means… Please stop pretending Steve Oh is progressive. AGGRESSIVE PROGRESSIVES needs its own platform separate from The Young Turks if that’s what it takes to dissociate from Steve Oh’s naivety. “Full judicial process”? What world does Steve live in? THE CORPORATE OLIGARCHY is winning because they now own ‘media’… arggggh
veda ~ I like Steve. He’s definitely more Progressive than some at TYT (Michael, Ben & John), but yikers, I cringed when he started with the “judicial process” line. Ugh.
Steve. Do you really want someone like Henry Kissinger deciding your fate? Or maybe someone not as “nice?”
Going thru the “Full Judicial Process” before a YouTube/Facebook/Google board to plead your case, seems a bit like asking the lion to stop eating you ~ MID CHEW.
Thanks chetzmom!
Being ‘more progressive’ than people who are NOT progressive does not make me happy. What Steve doesn’t seem to understand is that YouTube and Google and Facebook (and what other ‘platforms’….) are NOT ‘companies’ who care about their ‘customers’ and they respond to customer complaints. They are corporatist/government run monopolies and that means the information flow is “controlled.”
Shri had it out for Abdul El-Sayed from the get go. After the Democrats won the bid for Shri to run in their party, he smeared and even attempted to contest his eligibility to run for governor of Michigan. Something tells me he was hired to obstruct Abdul El-Sayed from being nominated by the Democratic Party by ANY MEANS NECESSARY.
AGREED.
Shri’s campaign was almost entirely fictitious. He was Trump w/o the carnival barker crowd-surfing talent.
He came out early with silly “Shri’s like Me!” TV ads that saturated everything.
He failed miserably in every debate & every interview.
Finally, Abdul gets traction in the last month or so of the campaign.
No one knew he was in the race! There was almost NO coverage.”
An older friend of mine who still watches local & cable news, had no idea who he was. NONE.
She learned a little bit about Abdul, and then voted for him.
But she knew about that idiot Shri from the get-go!
Jimmy, you are seeing things black or white. Consider this example: if somebody posts a video on youtube showing child porn, I will expect Youtube to delete that video and to, most probably, suspend that account… without warning or discussions with the person that did the post.
Jimmy was NOT at his best here, and Steve got way too heated.
Jimmy is being too black&white and Steve’s shades of gray are infinite.
Neither applies here because we have Media Monopolies.
The MAIN point here is that these media MONOPOLIES have TOTAL CONTROL over content.
Is there another YouTube-like platform people can go to?
What…Steem-it? Patreon?
How about FaceBook.
The DNC is claiming that trolls on Facebook were SO influential that they changed their preferred election result. So now Facebook will decide what is on it’s pages.
Then there’s Google…
Steve mention newspapers.
There use to be HUNDREDS, THOUSANDS of newspapers. We have 5 media companies now. I don’t care how influential Steve or Cenk thinks TYT is…it will NEVER be able to compete with the Big Five.
Unless of course, they follow YouTube’s rules…for now.
Thank fucking god for Malcolm!
He CALMLY explained it. There is no one to plead your case to, if the Corporation has already decided you are not allowed to talk.
If Youtube or Facebook does NOT attack TYT…then TYT IS OVER.
If they are siding with THEM and think somehow TYT will be “safe,” they are WRONG.
Then “The Home of Progressives” is just a tagline, and means NOTHING.
I am glad Jimmy and Steve got into it. Jimmy does have a tendency to make blanket statements. Steve will slow him down and parse out the finer points that Jimmy is trying to make. I always prefer when both Jimmy and Steve are on the show together.
Jimmy, love the passion you bring but this debate was not a good look.
Steve, hang tuff and don’t fire him!
Yeah there totally needs to be like an FCC to monitor content on all platforms and make those simple decisions like what is inappropriate for children etc without going to court.
There also needs to be transparency and a way to appeal cases to a third party where you could have a juried trial if there was restriction placed on content that was inappropriate or politically motivated.
Hard work is ahead
The internet should be a public utility and it will have to be regulated, including content. Therefore, there will have to be standards that would be enforced by a regulatory agency. The initial actions would be taken by that agency. A dispute would first go to an administrative hearing at that agency concerning whether the actions were consistent with the agency regulations. A further dispute could then go to civil court is the defendant is still agrieved and wants to defend their site or alternately if a plaintiff wants to have something removed. Further, the regulation promulgation procedure is open to public comment and dispute and is also political.
Some standards will be generally accepted and easily implemented in regulation. Such as direct calls for violence. Others are more fuzzy. Standard setting is inherently political. It is imperfect, but politics is how we do things. We will have to argue about the specific language in the regulations so there is a basis for disputing removal of content in administrative hearings on whether the regulatory agency followed those regulations. An administrative hearing is cheaper and more direct than civil litigation.
yea they gonna keep fighting rank-choice voting, because it makes people comfortable with voting for 3rd parties in general
glad they brought up the oil donations.
as far as the shenanigans….
good debate to have; i wish jimmy had been more mature about it. he takes too many shortcuts for a show that is this long.
so as long as the process is transparent with an impartial judge… Youtube should let everyone put porn unlimited porn up on their channels, with no moderation? as long as someone can sue the person who uploads it?
so don’t we need to turn all the media companies into utilities? MSNBC won’t hire me as a journalist; censorship?
Jimmy needs to give a better definition for when the company should be nationalized. or explain better how newspapers are the same thing as social media platforms.
When Jimmy says “kissinger tells zuckerberg which videos to take down” it really detracts from this show; its cheap.
Stef brought up an example of the government doing censorship (with the troops) while trying to support the idea that the government should be in control of the big media platforms in order to prevent censorship…
I think that Jimmy has been correct about this for over a year. You are distracted that Kissinger’s name was taken in vain? I don’t think TeleSur thinks it was cheap. They did excellent shows and had Abby Martin working on the channel and she did many shows from Palestine. She even interviewed Ahed Tamimi multiple times. But the reason is Palestine and the US is itching to go to war with Venezuela.
this wasn’t a great one for Jimmy; I’m glad Steve went in on him.
Great debate, but Jimmy, you are on the edge of sounding like coked out rage. Love you all and hope to catch up in SF or PDX soon.
I just wanna say, great show, and thank goodness we have Malcolm on the show.
I always love it when he is there because you know he is gonna have insightful, and often humorous, comments on most topics and he is basically a level-headed all-round good guy who is a genuine progressive.
Keep it up Mal, and thanks JD, Steve & Steff for bringing him back regularly.
I think a lot of people unfortunately in this comment section and those who watched this do not fully understand what Jimmy is trying to argue. His argument is based on two assumptions that he believes and those who watched do not get and I assume do not agree with. The first assumption is that media platforms such as Facebook, Twitter and YouTube etc have become monopolies. The second assumption is that because these media sites are monopolies and most Americans get their news from these sites, that according to Jimmy they should be treated as public domains and regulated. Once these two assumptions are understood than you can argue whether you are on Jimmy’s or Steve’s side. The reason I side with Jimmy on this one is because people like Ana for example keep saying that these media sites are not the government and are instead private corporations that are allowed to de-platform users that don’t follow user friendly guidelines. I disagree with her argument because based on these media sites such as Facebook, Twitter and Youtube who are all monopolies with no significant competitors in the industry; they need to be treated as public domains and their needs to be as Jimmy points out a adjudication and legal process when it comes to issues revolving around Free Speech. The current process led by people like Zuckerberg and Kissinger is unaccountable and not transparent enough; and because these platforms which are monopolies are treated as Private corporations and not public domains; there is no ability for the government to be able to check or regulate what these monopolistic corporations are doing. I also want to point out to Ana and those who agree with her argument that just because a “private corporation” is allowed, according to you to de-platform users that do not follow user friendly guidelines, that does not mean that what they are doing is right. Just because I can do something that does not mean that what I am doing is right. By law in the 1950s the Montgomery bus lines were allowed to force Black American to only ride in the back of buses, and if all the seats were taken they were required to give up their seats to White Americans. This was enforced by public transit and bus line corporations but we can all agree that what they did was wrong. My point is that just because you do not like Alex Jones, which I agree with you I hate him too; that does not mean you should just use that argument to justify the actions brought about by Facebook, Twitter and Youtube. There needs to more accountability and more dialogue from both sides; I am not liking seeing this infighting in TYT. Ana just talk to Jimmy or better yet invite him to the main show and have an honest debate between the two of you. During the election y’all were friends and tbh at this point I honestly wouldn’t be surprised to find out that Cenk has fired Jimmy Dore from TYT. When that day does happen there will be a significant minority of TYT members that have been members for a long time who will cancel their membership and I will be one of them. I miss the 2015-2016 Primary and General Election cycle where we were all together and fought for what was right; now all I see is two sides forming. The more left wing literalist like Jimmy versus the also left wing but more mainstream establishment Democrats like Cenk, Ana and John.
Excellent comment.
I hope that the mainstream establishment forces continue to realize the value of having true progressives like JDore etc. on TYT. I also hope they eventually get sick of being proven wrong again and again and not blame those to the left of them for their inadequacies. Their TDS prevents them from reaching their true potential.
I want to see people like Jimmy more across the TYT platform, not less.
At the moment it feels like a tiny slice of TYT is being left open for AP types while the mainstream Hillary-fan types like Ben Mankiewicz lord it over most of the rest of the site.
I’ll never forget Ben foaming at the mouth at the prospect of a Trump presidency….well, the attitude of settling for incrementalism and not caring about people who are really doing it tough is what has given you Trump. As JD states, Trump is a symptom of a very sick system…one that needs to be totally upended.
Meritocratic incrementalism is something that most Americans simply cannot afford….because they are literally dying because of it.
And Jimmy, tone the McShouty McShoutFace down a little, as some are saying, you degrade your crucially important message when you reduce your obvious passion (which is loved by nearly all of us) into vein-popping rants. Plus, your heart doesn’t need it….and we need you around for a lot longer. Cheers
Incrementalism is not a good thing, but I’m sorry, if the choice is between an incremental move to the left or a hard turn to the right (which is what is occurring now), I will choose the former every time. This is why Cenk is absolutely right when he says the most important vote is in the primaries, because this is where you can make a difference and choose progressives to carry the flag as the opposition to the maniacal Republicans. But in the general election IMHO it’s not a hard decision – others can disagree. I hate to repeat myself from previous comments but it has to said: Jimmy does a great job of illustrating where the Democrats are just as bad as the Republicans, but there are many areas in which Trump and the GOP are CLEARLY worse. Every time you hear about Trump rolling back an Obama policy regarding the environment or workers’ rights or anything else, step back and recognize that as imperfect as Obama was he still put those policies into place that no Republican ever would. And I won’t even talk about the courts. So let’s have the real wars with the Democrats in the primaries and hammer them HARD. The rhetoric from potential presidential candidates has already changed because of that, and there are millions who are now woke and will hold their feet to the fire. (Which, BTW, Jimmy did not do to Obama until he became born-again after the 2016 election.) If the silver lining of Trump being elected was supposed to be people on the left waking up to the corruption and injustice of the whole political system, don’t shit on them when they actually do.
Jimmy was on Obama from early on.
“Concentrated capital” does not sound half as pernicious as saying “Corporate capture of government”.
Jimmy for President. (but Jimmy please don’t get so aggressive you’re missing the finer points of the arguments and those of your opponents)
It is called Aggressive progressives.
Excellent episode! I love the passionate back and forth. Keep the Aggressive in the Aggressive Progressives!
Agreed.
Although those claiming it needs to be more Polite Aggressive Progressives (PAP) are missing the point a little, I think it needs to be more Respectful Aggressive Progressives (RAP)….ie. where JD wears a heart monitor alarm that goes off (and maybe gives him a little shock? ala Amazon-esque?) when his rant extends beyond a pre-determined limit and/or he talks over someone like Steve who is struggling to make his point.
JD you gotta realize that there are a lot of people who are turned off by someone who allows their passion to totally consume them and turn them into someone that looks like they are about to start throwing poop…no matter how right they are…..and these are the people we have got to convince to continue the progressive wave.
Don’t make it easy for those on the cusp to dismiss progressive ideas because of ill-constructed delivery.
Keep up the excellent work. Cheers
TYTLive did a segment about how if you sign up for infowars’ site you have to agree to the exact same rules that Jones violated on other platforms and he suffered the exact same consequences his own site says you would suffer too. I mean…
I think Google should clarify their community guidelines, Terms of service, and Terms of use.
Lost in all the yelling was that the best quote of the show from the miserable lib: the Democrats are the political incels.
Steve and Jimmy kiss and make up
Under old FCC rules, inappropriate comments were simply bleeped. Sandy Hook segments on Alex Jones should simply have been deleted, but to take down a whole number of platforms and millions of subscribers is draconian and indefensible. I am delighted Alex Jones will be tested in a court of law for Sandy Hook comments but this corporate/government discriminatory takedown is fascism.
Steve is inadvertently supporting the entrenchment of the Deep State because with all of the You Tube
personal cross connected stories now, we know the government is lying . AND WE ALSO KNOW RUSSIA GATE IS A COMPLETE FABRICAION that TYT is supporting FOR THE GREATEST ELECTION FRAUD IN US HISTORY! Maybe this is why Steve is so upset as he too has internal sharehoder problems?
Spot on. I will expound on what you are saying but you get it.
Say if I let people post flyers on a bulletin board I own, and someone posts a flyer with a death threat on it: I can’t remove that flyer unless I first go to court, and I have to keep letting the person post other flyers on my bulletin board. This scenario seems a bit ridiculous.
Well this episode definitely lived up to the “aggressive” part of it’s name
I guess the first thing I should point out is that there is no first amendment issue. Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, iTunes are not the government, and can pull people down whenever their terms of service allow (which they wrote and can revise)
I mean, with net neutrality gone, even ISPs can block content they serve on a case-by-case basis.
NOW, if these get regulated as a utility or become nationalized, that’s a different story
BTW
Because of this episode, I’m looking into:
PeerTube
Steemit
Pidgin
Friendica
Diaspora
Mastodon
and others
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_software_and_protocols_for_distributed_social_networking
Don’t forget Mastodon, an open-source Twitter alternative…
https://qz.com/951078/the-complete-guide-to-using-mastodon-the-twitter-twtr-alternative/
https://cryptoglobalist.com/2018/08/10/twitter-to-mastodon-exodus-proves-that-the-blockchain-revolution-is-coming-hodl-your-cryptos/
On the free speech/Jones topic:
I love Jimmy to death, but lately he’s been going off the deep end with his false equivalencies, straw-man arguments, and blanket statements. All of that combined with his repetitive stream of consciousness rants is making this show borderline unwatchable. It’s unfortunate because he’s much better than that sort of behavior.
I’m glad Steve called Jimmy out on the free speech topic. I’m troubled by the fact that Jimmy paints anyone who disagrees with him as either being part of a conspiracy or being a useful idiot. And on top of that, when someone disagrees with him he will instantly jump down their throat and talk over them while putting words in their mouth without letting them fully explicate or articulate their argument, or even get a word in edgewise.
Going by his argument with Steve, according to Jimmy you’re only sane if you agree 100% with Jimmy Dore. If you don’t then you’re a stooge. It’s all binary. Either you agree with Jimmy’s interpretation of the world, or you’re a chump. Judging by his conduct as of late, it appears like he’s gotten to the point where he thinks he’s the sole arbiter of truth. The way he treated Steve when they had a simple, honest disagreement was abhorrent and doesn’t reflect well on his ability to 1.) parse other people’s arguments 2.) analyze nuanced points of view that don’t line up 100% with his own point of view, and 3.) treat others who might honestly disagree him with basic decency and courtesy. His analysis lately has been pretty reductive and leaves a lot to be desired.
I fully believe Jimmy is better than the behavior he exhibited in this episode, and I hope he humbles himself and improves. He’s a smart guy and certainly capable of better analysis than the sort he’s been giving lately.
Well, put. Jimmy’s behavior with a person he ostensibly likes was at best cringe-worthy. Steve is unquestionably Jimmy’s intellectual equal, and he consistently demonstrates an ability to not only see multiple sides of an argument but evolve in his thinking.
I agree and noticed Jimmy’s behavior as well. I mostly agree with Jimmy on the point of censorship, free speech, and the idea that these platforms should be treated as utilities, however, Steve made some fair and sobering points and Jimmy attacked in a very disingenuous and illogical way. Jimmy seemed to purposely disregard or ignore the nuance of Steve’s argument and that made me cringe.
The whole argument takes place without a single mention of the relative ease of launching independent websites or that TYT is attempting to build its own platform/network. Should TYT have to go through a judicial process to remove Aggressive Progressives or any other dissenting program from its network? Networks have forever canceled and added shows at whim, often when they were controlled.
Jimmy refusing to admit any time he’s wrong and trying to straw man the other side is infuriating, even though they agree on 90% of the actual argument.
I think it’s incorrect to argue for complete freedom from censorship, as it opens google and facebook up to lawsuits when people post illegal content. I don’t think it’s wrong to try to create algorithms to filter fake news, but there are definitely going to be growing pains as AI just isn’t there yet.
Because of the complexity, it’s hard to regulate google and facebook. There’s probably less than 3% of senators and congressman capable of understanding the high level design. I do agree that it’s scary when facebook/google ban the wrong pages, and we do need to hold them accountable to prevent abuse of power.
Jimmy keeps talking about a transparent process as a kludge. We can all agree to transparency, but Jimmy’s solution of an adversarial court process is impractical, not realistic, and way too slow. That’s why there’s an appeal process. If anything, the appeal process needs to be more transparent. That’s why people use other lines of public pressure when they get banned; that’s why Telesur got reinstated.
My problem with Jimmy and Ron is they’re journalistically lazy. Jimmy needs to educate himself on computers. By creating an impartial algorithm, facebook and google are justifying keeping the government out. Without the algorithm, it would be purely up to government censors.
Jimmy needs to be called out more. Malcolm or Steve need to check him when he’s overreaching and straw manning. When neither of those two are on, Jimmy falls further into the rabbit hole.
I applaud Steve Oh for pulling out the slow admissions from Jimmy, forcing him to refine his views. It was painful.
Jimmy is fundamentally right, but rough around the edges.
Because of those algortihms I am being flooded with CNN, Fox News, PBS, NPR, etc. Steph had the most important comment on this show, Where are the flag draped coffins. I heard that Brown U had a study, we are in 134 countries fighting now. Where is the outrage?
I think Jimmy has a point regarding the need for a transparent process for removing videos. I don’t know why they’re so hesitant to be more specific and say exactly what the transgression was. Alex actually breaks community guidelines all the time. If they would just be a bit more open about who/why they are removing content it would solve a lot of the problem. That said, it is problematic that these few companies now control what people see to such a large extent, and we should look into much more draconian media concentration laws. I really think they have to split google up, probably facebook too, and make sure there’s no overlap between different media wings, ie, newpapers, tv, social media etc…
On another note, isn’t it kind of shocking that Jimmy pretty openly accuses Cenk of deliberately spreading propaganda? Have the two ever had a real face to face, full on discussion about their differences on Russia?
Under the imminent lawless action test, speech is not protected by the First Amendment if the speaker intends to incite a violation of the law that is both imminent and likely. There are a couple key parts to this. First is the INTENT. The speaker must INTEND to incite a violation of the law. Second is the IMMINENT AND LIKELY part. The illegal act must be immediately following the alleged incitement and it must be likely to occur. Until a jury has deliberated on it and agreed that it meets this criteria it cannot legally be incitement. Due process demands nothing less.
Thank God! Someone who actually understands the point Jimmy was trying to make and the point Steve just couldn’t understand. There are remedies to deal with these issues in a way that minimize corporate control while still protecting individuals allegedly at risk because of content while an adversarial process with a neutral fact finder takes place (for example, moving for entry of temporary restraining order while the litigation plays out).
I think Steve’s position on this issue will evolve over time. It’s not a close call, he’s wrong.
Steve sounds like he has a better understanding of what the current situation is with moderation, and how the law could be applied practically
You don’t have free speech if you allow Silicon Valley billionaires and other secret appointed individuals to determine whether or not your speech is okay. Speech should be free unless you’re hurting someone else. The person alleging that your speech is hurting them has the burden to prove that. A judge is not good enough to make that decision. It has to be by a jury of your peers. That’s due process. Judges are easily corruptible. That’s why we in theory speak highly of a jury system. Even where in an extreme case as Steve mentioned that someone is advocating having other people murdered, you have to err on the side of free speech. Advocating for it is not a crime, it’s the act that is the crime. And yes it can lead to some horrible outcomes, but that will pale in comparison to the damage that will be done if only certain individuals are allowed to decide what we can and can’t say.
Ya I gotta say I love Jimmy, but like he was completely steam rolling Steve which is pretty fucking lame if you ask me. And secondly as a Canadian we so not have total free speech, it is illegal to insight violence and I think that is a very important line.
Youtube took away the page that provided Chomsky’s videos for spreading misinformation, violating their Terms of Service. Regardless of your views of what is or isn’t good to post, corporations do and it is censorship. It is against the First Amendment not because they as a private corporation has the right to but because they are connected to the government. That is illegal Constitutionally. That is the definition of Fascism.
I am worried that people may not get the significance of Facebook’s taking down Telesur, and many may not know who or what Telesur is. It is a cooperative media company subsidized by Nicaragua, Uruguay, Cuba, Venezuela and Bolivia. These states fund Telesur in order to get the truth out about all the shit that the US is doing in the world.
I first started following Telesur because they produced Abby Martin’s amazing series, “The Empire Files.”
https://videosenglish.telesurtv.net/shows/the-empire-files/
So if you appreciate Abby Martin and/or the Empire Files (and I highly recommend them if you haven’t seen them) then you must realize that once again, JIMMY DORE WAS RIGHT.
I think that the whole Washington Post / newspaper argument is not really correct. The metaphor should be more like:
What if 100 years ago there was only one company that provided paper to the newspaper industry, and all newspapers had to buy their paper from that one giant paper conglomerate.
What if the owners of that paper supplier then started denying paper to those publications they disagreed with? The newspapers could no longer publish.
When all we had were three TV networks, the fairness doctrine and public service requirements of broadcasters were vigorously enforced, because the airwaves belong to THE PEOPLE, and everyone acknowledged that ABC, NBC and CBS were just given permission to use that part of the public commons as long as they fulfilled their obligation to the public. The FCC was an actual watchdog.
The Internet was not developed and built by Facebook or Apple or Google. It was developed by the Federal Government (ARPA) using public taxpayer funds. I see little difference between Google’s use of the Internet and NBC’s use of the airwaves. These companies should be HIGHLY regulated or even nationalized, and certainly they should not be in the position of deciding who can operate on their platform or not.
Title II of the Civil Rights Act provided for non-discrimination in terms of “public accommodation.” This section of the law specifically said that all persons had the right to equal access to “any motion picture house, theater, concert hall, sports arena, stadium or other place of exhibition or entertainment.”
So I think we need some sort of updated version of this law to apply to monopolistic Internet platforms and the protections need to be extended from “race, color, religion, or national origin” to include lawful political views and/or affiliations.
In other words, if the FBI isn’t arresting Alex Jones then he should not be de-platformed.
Well put.
And…Jimmy Dore was right.
“I see little difference between Google’s use of the Internet and NBC’s use of the airwaves.”
You are, of course, aware that NBC and the other networks fire and otherwise remove people all the time for saying/doing things that they don’t want to be associated with, correct? Like Roseanne Barr losing her tv show on ABC for being a racist moron on Twitter, or Matt Lauer losing his career at NBC because he turned out to be some sort of sexual predator or something.
That is fine. If the Board of Google want to kick out Eric Schmidt, or if Zuckerberg wants to fire his PA, then they should be able to.
If the CEO of your local power company decides to fire their PR person, they can do that, too.
Your point?
I’ve had to give up on the JDS already. Half the videos delve into the world of conspiracy. The panel on AP keeps a little sanity to the discussions but even that is fading. I’m not going to mention the platforms or AJ, because enough people have explained it to suffice. I’ll stick to Old School.
Just for the sake of argument: what exactly are the “conspiracies” that Jimmy is delving into? That the Gulf of Tonkin was a hoax? That the Iraqi WMD was deliberately fabricated in order to get us to go to war? Because I believe those things, too, and I think a lot of that has been proven over the years.
Seriously, what does Jimmy cover that you consider to be in the realm of Conspiracy Theories?
Great question Euroyankee, I too would love to hear a response from shychko on this.
I have to stop listening. This is my favorite tyt show, but I can’t listen to two men that I really have liked and respected scream at each other.
It’s like watching your two dads fight or something :(
I sat through it but jesum lord mercy the wave of relief when they sort of came to an agreement after the first break was palpable AF.
I’ve been listening to AP since the beginning, but the last few months Jimmy has been going in a direction I am finding harder and harder to support. He has been getting more facts wrong, denying evidence, and deploying bad logic more and more. His all on or all off view of the world and his points of hypocritical commentary has been getting more disturbing recently. I’m glad to see Steve give him some pushback and try to sort out the nuance and separate arguments that Jimmy is lumping all into one “you are for me or against me” argument. I genuinely have been mulling over unsubscribing from the podcast over the last few weeks. Steve’s pushback has pushed me into giving this show a little more time before I make that decision.
The problem with Jimmy leaning so heavily on that Taibbi article is he’s ignoring a pretty huge point.
Let’s say Taibbi writes an article for whatever newspaper (I think he mentions NYT). In said hypothetical article, he says “hey everybody, go murder X, Y, and Z.” The NYT won’t run that article- it’s not only horrible, but they’re setting themselves up for a pretty expensive lawsuit if they do run it and X, Y, and Z are actually attacked.
Then if Taibbi keeps writing articles in a similar vein. The NYT will fire him. They’re not going to waste time, money, and other resources on the hypothetical jackass. The editorial staff has used their own judgement to shut him down.
So why don’t FB/YT have the right to a similar standard? You’re not an employee of theirs, or receiving a wage/salary, but you are receiving a benefit- you have ready/free access to the infrastructure that they have set up- the website. You’re not paying for the service, they’re providing it for “free” (subject to their targeted advertising and so forth). And they can be held liable for what people do with that “free” access.
Also, the Telesur thing is already a non-issue. It wasn’t down for very long, and I don’t know exactly what happened, but my guess (largely based on what Telesur themselves reported in this article: https://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Facebook-Taketh-Facebook-Giveth-What-Facebook-Told-TeleSUR-20180815-0029.html) is it was taken down due to abuse of the “report page” function. Enough people (likely people who disagree with them) “reported” them that an algorithm/bot kicked in and shut it down until someone who works for FB got around to putting it back up. According to Telesur, FB initially sent them a standardized form saying “you violated the TOS”, and then later sent emails indicating that it was “a technical issue”.
Pardon my French, but this was the worst Fucking Straw Man argument I have ever seen.
This is why I subscribe to TYT, A heated argument/conversation between Jimmy & Steve gets full airing, they are obviously best of buddies and the issue at hand gets sorted. Love it !
I agree that Jimmy is right that no political content should ever be taken down. But Steve is also right and is concerned about other things that are not political. I think the remedy to Steve’s concern is that if somebody posts a harmful content like violence to somebody, Facebook/YouTube etc. should immediately hide that post from public view, and have them contact you as to why that post is hidden. If you wish to dispute that, there should at least be a constitutional lawyer on the other side with that company’s representative. So I guess my solution here is that YouTube/Facebook/Google make billions of dollars, and they should invest in creating an independent ACLU-like digital group to help, kind of like a public defender.
I’m just throwing ideas out there…
Im a new member and really only enjoy the main show and post game. I tried Aggressive Progressives for the first time today and was about to right it off as some left wing conspiracy show until Steve Oh came on and breathed some much needed logic and grounded thought into the panel. I watched jimmy spout this crazy Q like nonsense on Joe Rogans podcast and was embarassed for jimmy as joe pushed back with logic against jimmys ranting. I will be watching every episode that Steve is a part of because i cant stomach jimmys fear mongering.
Simple answer.
Make it so that the entire user-base gets to elect the judges on a regular basis… Like for youtube have a Judge Candidate Channel that people can subscribe to and vote for who is to be their moderators.. and have the process have some kind of technical means of preventing botnets from mass-voting in certain users such as re-capcha or require each vote to have a valid phone number to verify their vote and prevent duplicate votes.
Then whoever gets the most votes, becomes the moderator.
The moderator will have the power to take down any video that they deem unfit for the platform. No warnings, no questions. If you dont like it, vote for someone else. Majority rules.
Why dont we have this system for the entire government! Hell we could just get rid of all these politician dipshits and just have the people vote on all the little laws that get passed and have a final level court which is called “the majority court” where everybody can vote for guilty or not guilty.
You can thank me later for this awesome idea, Steve Oh.
Time to start progressing towards the ONLY real answer to all of this. Direct democracy via technology
I’m just going to say this, if you dox someone, you should have your video taken down no matter what side you are on. If you directly threaten someone or call for a group to die, like Alex Jones did to the media as shown on Twitter’s interview, I say yes, shut them down or someone could end up dead or seriously hurt. In this case, I would say to keep the video in some archive so that if the video owner sues and wins in a case like this, (won’t happen with Alex Jones because slander and direct threats aren’t protected speech, but let him try anyways), then they simply put the video back up.
But yes, Alex Jones directly threatened people’s lives, and that’s why he should be taken down. The leftish guy that got taken down just made an obvious joke making fun of a racist, so he shouldn’t be taken down. I’m sorry but I’m more with Steve on this one. If they didn’t take down the obvious videos, nobody would want to be on YouTube anymore.
I was and am a big fan of Telesur. They provide truthful reporting on what is going on in Latin America.
TYT viewers may know Telesur because they produced and published Abby Martin’s “Empire Files.”
That’s right – Facebook and their Sith Masters in The Atlantic Council have de-platformed the producers of Abby Martin’s Empire Files, one of the most hard-hitting, courageous and informative critics of America’s global malefaction.
JIMMY WAS RIGHT.
Oui monsieur
Hey Jimmy.
This whole bullshit exchange should make you and TYT understand that your time on youTyoob is LIMITED. Steve’s main point is that FB, youtyoob and other social media platforms is not a utility. Zuckerberg, Google guys and Apple Corp owns these platforms and can ultimately do whatever they want to people that post on their site. Alex Jones pissed off too many people and these social media platforms decided to zap him. Keep in mind that despite what you say about some fucking billionaire making unilateral decisions about who the fuck goes on their site, it was probably prompted by a shit ton of liberal progressives (such as myself) complaining about that cunt and THIS threatened their financial bottom line. So…because the social media, at the moment are all private money-making enterprises, what the fuck did you think was going to happen? You guys should be worried because, yes, they came for all the progressives with Adpocalypse a year ago and Alex Jones, dicky as he is got pulled, TeleSur got pulled, etc… Your tenure at social media is on it’s way out. I pay $10 a month to hear you fucking bust balls and talk shit. It’s amusing and allows me a platform to vent. On principle, YOU ARE RIGHT, but it will only work unequivocally on a truly open platform. You guys have to get your shit on BitChute as soon as possible. FYI, all the alt-right nutbars and crazies are there now. It’s time the progressive make their ways there and start putting down stakes on that platform. Be advised that you won’t make money on that shit (like youTube pays out on advertiser edits in your content). But if you fuckers truly give a fuck, you will eventually leave youTube for better pastures. Keep up the good work and fucking start moving away ASAP.
So you have to now admit that you side with Rand Paul and racists who objected to the “public accommodation” clauses of the Civil Rights Act.
https://www.justice.gov/crt/title-ii-civil-rights-act-public-accommodations
“Zuckerberg, Google guys and Apple Corp owns these platforms and can ultimately do whatever they want to people that post on their site.”
Let’s try this:
“Augusta Country Club, Chick Fil-A and Cracker Barrel own these locations and can ultimately do whatever they want to people who come into their establishments.”
The answer is clear: these places need to be regulated and controlled if not outright owned by the government.
Thank you! They don’t understand that when a “private” actor benefits from the government (including getting a license to do something), that actor, like the government, is subject to constitutional requirements.
This heated debate is really refreshing to me! I mean it was uncomfortable, but I mean big picture. What we are witnessing is us having an important conversation about something that has been quietly happening to us. And it has been sprung on us out in the open with Alex Jones because the powers that be thought that would be the perfect boogie man to get us all to consent to their new pattern. Much like Russia the last couple of years, or “terrorism” in the 2000s.
This is one of those few things that, from the time he originally verbalized his stance, I disagreed with Jimmy about. I actually think his deferment to some court-like institution cannot scale in practice given the volume of strikes happening on youtube/others all the time, and even if it could, I still don’t like it.
My stance takes a different approach. Take a step back. History of the early Internet. Links. Usenet. Blogs. RSS. Aggregators. Then while people were still trying to figure out how to leverage aggregators, what I would call congregators came out and exploded, and served as a distraction that starved the healthy growth of the Internet.
A lot of innovation has happened though in parallel in the last decade+, and some really interesting things are out there ready for people to switch. We just need to keep getting sickened by what these social media platforms are doing to us, and at some critical point, the next thing will come out that will go back to the earlier principles/ideals of the Internet, with a design that will lock out the appeal of using one specific congregator because of decentralization, and we’ll be back on good footing.
Facebook shouldn’t become the next town square. Facebook should become the next Myspace.
But their page is back, a simple fb search and you find it
Yes it is but the fact it was taken down again for no reason other than it shows the American media’s lies about Latin America is concerning. There is no reason to down TeleSUR down at all and now it has happened twice.
And General Matthis went to South America looking for more US “coordination” with the countries to the South. With our history of the School of the America’s, Steph migh get her wish of more flag draped coffins being viewed. But it won’t be wrapped in the American Flag.
PS I am not dissing Steph, she would understand what I am saying. I know it wasn’t a “wish”. Steph is my liberal hero.
Sexcellent.
Jimmy you don’t get why some ppl are upset about your outrage at Alex jones banning. Free speech is free but you can’t yell fire in a crowded room, so there are and always has been limitations. When you insight violence (like he has with pizza gate and sandy hook, not to mention his recent video on Twitter) it is within the law and private companies to do that. If you aren’t inciting violence but they censor you anyway then you have a court case. It’s funny that Alex jones hasn’t declared a lawsuit that the companies were stopping his free speech because he knows he would lose. I love lots of your points jimmy but you have to look at all sides. If they start to ban (not de-monetise) ppl who are just saying things against the establishment then we have a problem. Your still on the platform and so is tyt. You guys don’t promote hate speech so you have nothing to worry about. If they do, then the left will be up in arms
“you can’t yell fire in a crowded room”
You should realise that this quote was from Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.’s opinion in the United States Supreme Court case Schenck v. United States in 1919, which held that the defendant’s speech in opposition to the draft during World War I was not protected free speech under the First Amendment of the United States Constitution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_theater
That’s right: A man was prosecuted under the Espionage Act for distributing flyers against the war (WWI) and the draft, and Holmes used that “crowded theater” argument to defend the Court’s decision to imprison that poor bastard.
Holmes later regretted his decision and his utterance.
good catch!
I watched the live version of the show on Tuesday and the exchange between Jimmy and Steve was way over the top to watch live. What was wrong with Jimmy, did he one too many martinis before the show today?
Jimmy never let anyone else express their opinion, interrupted constantly and tried to trap Steve into a narrative instead of allowing him to speak his point. Never mind completely ignoring Stef and Malcolm, it was painful to watch. There’s being passionate about an issue but it was pure bullying.
Agreed, JD needs to be more controlled and share the pulpit a little more.
The rants (although overwhelmingly factual) cannot be doing his heart much good either.
And you gotta respect your co-hosts, even if you strongly disagree with something they say/feel.
Respectful Aggressive Progressives baby….RAP it for me!!! :-)
Thanks DrKrieger. I am happy for Jimmy’s popularity growing with his sold out shows, but I think his ego is getting in the way lately and worried he could turn off viewers (I’d like to see TYT put AP on more than once a week, as an alternative to Main Show).
I’m finding he constantly is dominating conversations to express his own thoughts without allowing anyone else from the panel or even invited guests to weigh in on issues or to speak without being interrupted so he can insert himself. That’s why I questioned if it was due to too many martinis before the show as he seems to not pick up cues. Let the panel express their own opinions to allow exchange of views as opposed to group think.
Malcolm’s and Stef’s body language during the heated debate between Jimmy and Steve is like WTF?!!
IKR! I love the discourse, but damn it must have been awkward for everyone in the room LOL
Finally! I do not understand why TYT uploads this on Wednesday?!? Just upload it on Tuesday after the live AP. Many TYT viewers including myself, only watch pay $10 a month for TYT membership in order to watch Aggressive Progressives and the Post Game!
I agree and came here to comment the same thing! I paid for my membership mostly for aggressive progressives!
Same, agree 100%.
Last!