Grace Baldridge is joined by Brooke Thomas to talk about fathers who kill their kids–focusing on the three cases of Marvin Gay, John List, & Christian Longo. They analyze the psychology behind “familicide.”
John List was, in many ways, bot the most fascinating and the scariest. He was super religious and super traditional. One neighbor reported that he would put on a dress shirt and tie to mow his lawn.
List was living the American Dream in 1971. He moved upward through a succession of jobs, each better than the last, and was living in a mansion in an exclusive NJ suburb. Then he lost his job. For a man of List’s beliefs, this was incredibly humiliating. He didn’t tell his family and kept leaving for work every day. He was already living beyond his means and knew that the financial roof was about to fall in, so he did, what to his warped mind, was the rational thing.
List was also a fundamentalist and extremely unnerved by the sexual revolution and social changes of the sixties. He saw his children slipping away and was afraid they would literally go to hell. By killing them he was also playing it safe and sending them to heaven before they could be corrupted or lose their faith.
The third part where they say that the father murders his family because he sees life as too unbearable to carry on reminds me of a case that happened fairly recently in my area of northeast Montana.
This man’s wife was dying from cancer and because of the high medical cost their farm was at risk of being sold to cover the expenses. When the wife did die from the cancer some time later, the man went upstairs to shoot his daughter because he thought that she shouldn’t have to live the rest of her life without her mother. Luckily, but also in a way, tragically, the bullet simply grazed the side of her face. But the man thought that he had killed her so he went out to the barn and killed himself.
So now this girl has to live the rest of her life without either of her parents.
From what I’ve heard, her aunt and uncle have swooped in to be her guardians and because they didnt want her to not have her horses, they bought land down in Texas and that’s the last I’ve heard about her.
May the Creator watch over her.
There is an old Buddhist saying “people who kill believe they are right.” Certainly John List, and Christian Longo believed this. I think when Marvin Gay Sr killed his son, it was totally different than the other two fathers who killed their children, and wives, and in the case of List, his mother. Marvin Gaye Sr acted more in the heat of the moment. He did not take a great deal of time, and planning in his actions. He did not kill anyone else in his family. Marvin Gay Sr did not run from the scene, and he didn’t deny his actions. Disregarding everything in the past, the events of the day before Marvin Gay Sr killed his son, there was a myriad of dysfunction including a physical altercation, in part fueled by drugs, and fear. Another difference is that Marvin Gay Sr felt remorse.
The story of Francine Hughes, back in the 1970s became well known because she was acquitted for burning her husband to death while he was asleep in a drunken stupor. Her story became well known in a movie starring Farah Fawcett, called The Burning Bed. She was acquitted of murder by reason of temporary insanity. You might do her story in a segment of Friends Who Murder. My point in mentioning Francine Hughes is because sometime there is a lead up to a murder that isn’t based on the murderer being evil.
You said that all of them were religious. The Male Privileged society of most fundamental religion gives them permission to say, “I’m the father and in charge, it’s my right to do this.” You go off “get right with God” , and send off on your merry way.
Regarding your description of familicide and its motives, I had heard of that subset of people being referred to as “family annihilators”. Usually men, often after losing their jobs, believe that their families are better off dying than suffering with a provider that can’t provide, kill their whole family and then themselves. Thing is, I don’t think any of the cases you present fit under that category. I think that the ego part definitely fits, but that fits with most psychopaths. I think there is something inherenty tragic, and something closer to a psychotic break, when it comes to “true” family annihilators, and I think it’s a bit simplistic to say “everyone who murders their family is just pure evil no motive end of story”. Look for example at mothers who kill: some are psychopaths, or egotistical to the point of evil, and some suffer from serious postpartum depression that takes a horrific and tragic turn. I think different examples of fathers who kill might bring bring up an interesting and more on point discussion about the psychology behind it.
Marvin G., like a lot of people from his era and this, started singing in the church. His father was a preacher. There was conflict and pressure when Gay not only began using his talent in secular markets and the C&P became worse as Marvin Gay became more and more famous and loved.
Forgot about what happened to Marvin Gaye, in fact I always got him mixed up with Al Green for some reason.
This was my first time to hear of the other two murderers. Sheesh. I’m with Victory Wong on how religion can be a major motivator of evil.
I also think the fallout from all that post WW2 mythology Washington, states and companies threw out there about ‘a woman’s place’ and male breadwinners crushed so many well intentioned families. It especially destroyed lots of men. This kind of reality denial in addition to soul crushing hardships on LGBTQ people had to have created more monsters than these three.
Grace is always great, but I found almost a mind meld with Brooke, she voiced the horrifying incongruence of a right-wing God squader and the lie they can live in. Brooke’s righteous voice for the voiceless and genuine disgust for ANY “pass” or compassion for the murders, was cathartic. There is pure evil masquerading among us! Chilling!
I remember watching the made for TV movie about John List which starred Robert Blake….maybe you want to do an episode about him, Robert Blake that is. I mean how many actors are so inspired by their work (allegedly).
I was surprised neither of them mentioned that marvin Hayes dad used to say “I brought u into this world, I can’t take u out of it” on more than one occasion. It was like something he jus used to say
It’s kind of a thing that a lot of comedians and comedic shows say and I don’t get it… I am your parent so I can kill you? I don’t know it just doesn’t land for me as a “joke” but that saying is often presented that way
In regards to the second case it’s like dude you could of just said I’m going out for some milk and never come back instead of being selfish and killing your whole entire family so you can can have a new life.
Wow! The 2nd and 3rd were both really shocking. I’d have to disagree with the guest (sorry I have a very bad memory for names) that they are Christian and therefor how can they kill. Unfortunately very easily. People have waged wars and murdered others in the name of religion and done many an evil thing in the name of God or whomever they believe in for a very long time. She is thinking of the progressive sweet happy Christian– do no evil etc. Religion is a powerful motivator for many people to do good or evil so I unfortunately can understand how he thought it was a pod thing. The third guy I agree, he wanted out and this is how he wanted to escape his “ole ball and chain” as people used to say sometimes.
I have heard about Marvin Gaye but only because I looked him up while listening to his music. But I’ve listened to his music all my life, like a lot of us and never knew anything about his torment, murder, or family issues. Very sad that he was so young. I agree though that there was definite intent. His father walks out, looks for the gun, then shoots him twice, not once, then hides the gun and won’t tell them where it is while Marvin is dying. That’s pretty cold to be honest.
Thank you! I’m always very happy when a new video comes out, I only wish you did more of them, they are very interesting. I know they aren’t politics etc, but it’s def. necessary right now to get away from serious and often depressing stuff and talk about— uhm murder! Well you know what I mean. Thanks very much. Tell Cenk he needs to let you make more videos more often.
I disagree with your disagreement. She is highlighting that horrible people use it as an excuse or shield. Their religion is something they use to try to cover it later it’s not a real motivation or feeling. People invoke the names of their gods in order to justify that they are shit people
Christian Longo story was disturbing. But why would a 25 year old woman marry a 18 year ? She did not give him time to grow up…he sounds like he is a socipath. Like Scott Peterson story. He did not just get like that , probably the signs were there when he was younger and the parents ignored it thinking he would out grown the behavior. Some of the first signs are crulty to animals.
I grew up during the 70’s and 80’s and to comment on the cross dressing and teasing that Marvin endured because of his father…is truly understandable. It was not acceptable to even be gay must less cross dress. People could easily be beat up or murdered for being known as homosexual. No one would ever admit openly to this stuff. It is only recently the past few years it has become acceptable to society. If you were a mininster you would surely be thrown out of the church and your family ostrasized. People take too much for granite in today’s world. Consider what John Lewis had to go through in the Civil Rights era…well the 70’s and 80’s was not that far away in light years. Actually it is almost like it was yesterday. Mental illness and drug addiction were also things hidden by families. Marvin was doing the best he could sadly, and it sounds like he was all alone in his journey.
There is more to the John List story that is being left out. Things don’t usually happen without some reason, List was a disturbed man, this in no way justifies what he did to his family. But mental illness does have a root. His wife was an alcoholic that verbally abused him and he lost his job at the bank he worked at. He concealed it by leaving the same time every day and sitting at the local train station and then returning home at the end of the day. He skimped money out of his mothers’ bank account to cover expenses for a while until he made the decison to murder his family. His wife was really tormenting him. She tricked him into marrying her by not telling him she had teritairy syphillis for 18 years before she married him. So he finds this out years and years later in a blood test. So one day he just snapped. Maybe he had the effects of the syphllis in his brain by then too.
I almost got really excited thinking you were doing a local story from my city. If you guys read these check out George Banks of Wilkes-Barre, PA. Everyone around here still talks about him. Killed 13 people most of them his wives and kids.
Comments
John List was, in many ways, bot the most fascinating and the scariest. He was super religious and super traditional. One neighbor reported that he would put on a dress shirt and tie to mow his lawn.
List was living the American Dream in 1971. He moved upward through a succession of jobs, each better than the last, and was living in a mansion in an exclusive NJ suburb. Then he lost his job. For a man of List’s beliefs, this was incredibly humiliating. He didn’t tell his family and kept leaving for work every day. He was already living beyond his means and knew that the financial roof was about to fall in, so he did, what to his warped mind, was the rational thing.
List was also a fundamentalist and extremely unnerved by the sexual revolution and social changes of the sixties. He saw his children slipping away and was afraid they would literally go to hell. By killing them he was also playing it safe and sending them to heaven before they could be corrupted or lose their faith.
The third part where they say that the father murders his family because he sees life as too unbearable to carry on reminds me of a case that happened fairly recently in my area of northeast Montana.
This man’s wife was dying from cancer and because of the high medical cost their farm was at risk of being sold to cover the expenses. When the wife did die from the cancer some time later, the man went upstairs to shoot his daughter because he thought that she shouldn’t have to live the rest of her life without her mother. Luckily, but also in a way, tragically, the bullet simply grazed the side of her face. But the man thought that he had killed her so he went out to the barn and killed himself.
So now this girl has to live the rest of her life without either of her parents.
From what I’ve heard, her aunt and uncle have swooped in to be her guardians and because they didnt want her to not have her horses, they bought land down in Texas and that’s the last I’ve heard about her.
May the Creator watch over her.
There is an old Buddhist saying “people who kill believe they are right.” Certainly John List, and Christian Longo believed this. I think when Marvin Gay Sr killed his son, it was totally different than the other two fathers who killed their children, and wives, and in the case of List, his mother. Marvin Gaye Sr acted more in the heat of the moment. He did not take a great deal of time, and planning in his actions. He did not kill anyone else in his family. Marvin Gay Sr did not run from the scene, and he didn’t deny his actions. Disregarding everything in the past, the events of the day before Marvin Gay Sr killed his son, there was a myriad of dysfunction including a physical altercation, in part fueled by drugs, and fear. Another difference is that Marvin Gay Sr felt remorse.
The story of Francine Hughes, back in the 1970s became well known because she was acquitted for burning her husband to death while he was asleep in a drunken stupor. Her story became well known in a movie starring Farah Fawcett, called The Burning Bed. She was acquitted of murder by reason of temporary insanity. You might do her story in a segment of Friends Who Murder. My point in mentioning Francine Hughes is because sometime there is a lead up to a murder that isn’t based on the murderer being evil.
You said that all of them were religious. The Male Privileged society of most fundamental religion gives them permission to say, “I’m the father and in charge, it’s my right to do this.” You go off “get right with God” , and send off on your merry way.
Meant wend not send. Autocorrect is sometimes a bit creative.
Regarding your description of familicide and its motives, I had heard of that subset of people being referred to as “family annihilators”. Usually men, often after losing their jobs, believe that their families are better off dying than suffering with a provider that can’t provide, kill their whole family and then themselves. Thing is, I don’t think any of the cases you present fit under that category. I think that the ego part definitely fits, but that fits with most psychopaths. I think there is something inherenty tragic, and something closer to a psychotic break, when it comes to “true” family annihilators, and I think it’s a bit simplistic to say “everyone who murders their family is just pure evil no motive end of story”. Look for example at mothers who kill: some are psychopaths, or egotistical to the point of evil, and some suffer from serious postpartum depression that takes a horrific and tragic turn. I think different examples of fathers who kill might bring bring up an interesting and more on point discussion about the psychology behind it.
Marvin G., like a lot of people from his era and this, started singing in the church. His father was a preacher. There was conflict and pressure when Gay not only began using his talent in secular markets and the C&P became worse as Marvin Gay became more and more famous and loved.
Forgot about what happened to Marvin Gaye, in fact I always got him mixed up with Al Green for some reason.
This was my first time to hear of the other two murderers. Sheesh. I’m with Victory Wong on how religion can be a major motivator of evil.
I also think the fallout from all that post WW2 mythology Washington, states and companies threw out there about ‘a woman’s place’ and male breadwinners crushed so many well intentioned families. It especially destroyed lots of men. This kind of reality denial in addition to soul crushing hardships on LGBTQ people had to have created more monsters than these three.
Grace is always great, but I found almost a mind meld with Brooke, she voiced the horrifying incongruence of a right-wing God squader and the lie they can live in. Brooke’s righteous voice for the voiceless and genuine disgust for ANY “pass” or compassion for the murders, was cathartic. There is pure evil masquerading among us! Chilling!
I remember watching the made for TV movie about John List which starred Robert Blake….maybe you want to do an episode about him, Robert Blake that is. I mean how many actors are so inspired by their work (allegedly).
I wish that John List got it’s own episode. There seems to be a lot to that story.
I was surprised neither of them mentioned that marvin Hayes dad used to say “I brought u into this world, I can’t take u out of it” on more than one occasion. It was like something he jus used to say
Bill Cosby used to say that too.
It’s kind of a thing that a lot of comedians and comedic shows say and I don’t get it… I am your parent so I can kill you? I don’t know it just doesn’t land for me as a “joke” but that saying is often presented that way
In regards to the second case it’s like dude you could of just said I’m going out for some milk and never come back instead of being selfish and killing your whole entire family so you can can have a new life.
My mom and brother lived around the corner from Marvin Gaye when he was killed, went to his house for the memorial. Sad stuff.
Wow! The 2nd and 3rd were both really shocking. I’d have to disagree with the guest (sorry I have a very bad memory for names) that they are Christian and therefor how can they kill. Unfortunately very easily. People have waged wars and murdered others in the name of religion and done many an evil thing in the name of God or whomever they believe in for a very long time. She is thinking of the progressive sweet happy Christian– do no evil etc. Religion is a powerful motivator for many people to do good or evil so I unfortunately can understand how he thought it was a pod thing. The third guy I agree, he wanted out and this is how he wanted to escape his “ole ball and chain” as people used to say sometimes.
I have heard about Marvin Gaye but only because I looked him up while listening to his music. But I’ve listened to his music all my life, like a lot of us and never knew anything about his torment, murder, or family issues. Very sad that he was so young. I agree though that there was definite intent. His father walks out, looks for the gun, then shoots him twice, not once, then hides the gun and won’t tell them where it is while Marvin is dying. That’s pretty cold to be honest.
Thank you! I’m always very happy when a new video comes out, I only wish you did more of them, they are very interesting. I know they aren’t politics etc, but it’s def. necessary right now to get away from serious and often depressing stuff and talk about— uhm murder! Well you know what I mean. Thanks very much. Tell Cenk he needs to let you make more videos more often.
I disagree with your disagreement. She is highlighting that horrible people use it as an excuse or shield. Their religion is something they use to try to cover it later it’s not a real motivation or feeling. People invoke the names of their gods in order to justify that they are shit people
Christian Longo story was disturbing. But why would a 25 year old woman marry a 18 year ? She did not give him time to grow up…he sounds like he is a socipath. Like Scott Peterson story. He did not just get like that , probably the signs were there when he was younger and the parents ignored it thinking he would out grown the behavior. Some of the first signs are crulty to animals.
I grew up during the 70’s and 80’s and to comment on the cross dressing and teasing that Marvin endured because of his father…is truly understandable. It was not acceptable to even be gay must less cross dress. People could easily be beat up or murdered for being known as homosexual. No one would ever admit openly to this stuff. It is only recently the past few years it has become acceptable to society. If you were a mininster you would surely be thrown out of the church and your family ostrasized. People take too much for granite in today’s world. Consider what John Lewis had to go through in the Civil Rights era…well the 70’s and 80’s was not that far away in light years. Actually it is almost like it was yesterday. Mental illness and drug addiction were also things hidden by families. Marvin was doing the best he could sadly, and it sounds like he was all alone in his journey.
There is more to the John List story that is being left out. Things don’t usually happen without some reason, List was a disturbed man, this in no way justifies what he did to his family. But mental illness does have a root. His wife was an alcoholic that verbally abused him and he lost his job at the bank he worked at. He concealed it by leaving the same time every day and sitting at the local train station and then returning home at the end of the day. He skimped money out of his mothers’ bank account to cover expenses for a while until he made the decison to murder his family. His wife was really tormenting him. She tricked him into marrying her by not telling him she had teritairy syphillis for 18 years before she married him. So he finds this out years and years later in a blood test. So one day he just snapped. Maybe he had the effects of the syphllis in his brain by then too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_List
I almost got really excited thinking you were doing a local story from my city. If you guys read these check out George Banks of Wilkes-Barre, PA. Everyone around here still talks about him. Killed 13 people most of them his wives and kids.