TYT Old School January 18, 2018

In Membership, TYT Old School - On Demand by Gigi Manukyan33 Comments

Cenk, Ben, & Brett Erlich talk Ben’s favorite Thai food, Ben’s interaction with a homeless man, St. Jude’s stamp trick, mail return, chive cutters, why Alexa isn’t spying on you, lip smacking, Kevin Spacey’s hidden sexuality, and what Millennials define as sexual harassment.

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  1. 1:30:23 In relation to young people and the cries that asking someone to coffee is sexual harassment:
    I am not so sure that just because there is a loud portion of women who claim to be, “pro woman,” or feminist, who believe this rhetoric, that this is the, “future majority culture.” I will concede that it is possible that dating interactions change, as roles and expectations change, but I don’t think it will actually occur quite so drastically as to deem the act of asking someone to coffee as sexual harassment.

    I know we have had enormous change,s over the years, in social interactions. I also think that it’s possible that these same advocates, who believe that men approaching women is harassment, are likely the same brand of women who claim to be feminist, but think women should never show skin, or act sexually, and try to get magazines with swim-suit models banned from stores. This branch of women can come from a religious perspective, or a secular-religious perspective, where women are to be hyper-revered, protected, and may even advocate for misandry, or a matriarchal society. The behavior of a man approaching a woman for a drink, or “making the first move” might be seen as a power-play, and one in which the man is not showing deference, or genuflection, to her choice, and power. Think of it as similar to a man being offended if his girlfriend proposes to him. Many men may see it as emasculating; though not all men agree. There may be some women who have similar expectations, from men. We must be careful not to allow a man to ruin a woman’s life for proposing marriage, instead of him, and we must be careful not to allow a woman to destroy a man’s life, for proposing anything from coffee, to “making a move,” in a scenario where an expectation of intimacy isn’t inappropriate.

  5. A listener from Thailand here! The dish Ben described is probably the most common dish in Thailand. Its called pad kra pao gai/moo (stir fried basil with chicken/pork), the dish is definitely more common than pad Thai which is what foreigners think of when they think of Thai food.

    I’m just glad its being appreciated on old school

    1. Oh, my, wow! Thanks, so much for the name. I had this dish years ago, and then the restaurant disappeared. I have always wanted to try making it, myself. Now, I can google it! Thanks!!

  6. My first impression of the idea of millennials finding compliments to be harassment was a sort of embarrassment, but… reading some of the comments here, I’ve realized that, yeah, I’ve never been complimented on my appearance outside of an established relationship in a way that has not been creepy. I can’t… even envision that context where someone saying I look good, no matter their gender, who wasn’t already in a relationship of some sort (family or friends included) with me, would not be creepy.

    I managed to date and marry a guy 15 years ago. Somehow that happened without commenting on each other’s appearances. We did the introvert favorites: surreptitiously passed notes ‘Will you go out with me? Y/N’ and expressing interest through mutual friends type things instead.

    I don’t think I’d slot a compliment on appearance immediately into the category of harassment, but my immediate, visceral reaction to such a compliment would nevertheless be at least a cringe, if not outright flight. So yeah. The culture is there. I can see it, and I get it.

    I think Ansari is guilty of being insensitive, and if I were in the girl’s shoes, I probably would have also cried on the way home, but I also would have been incredibly appreciative of his backing off once I mustered the courage to ask him to do so. I don’t think insensitivity is a crime, or even harassment, or even really something to write gossip articles about when so many truer jerks are out there, but it can definitely be hard to deal with, yes.

  7. About the telling women they look good conversation:

    I don’t know if this will help, but I’m a millennial, an older one (33), but maybe my perspective will help.

    I don’t like to hook up, so usually if I’m alone some place I’m just minding my own business. I have had men come up, unsolicited, and say this to me a few times. It has always been super ultra creepy. I have yet to have a stranger tell me I’m pretty in a casual, non-creepy way. Typically the statement comes with the guy standing far too close and/orbeing really handsy, as if saying the statement itself gave him permission. Usually the creepiness they give off comes in one of two flavors: Super horny, if-you-give-any-response-I’ll-strip-you-naked-and-take-you-right-here creepy OR Serial killer, I-want-to-wear-your-skin creepy.

    To be fair, these scenarios take place if this statement, or variations like it, are used as an opener or very, very shorty into the conversation. Every time I have heard this phrase in these conditions, really frightening behavior has accompanied it. So I can see how some women can see the phrase itself as being sexual harassment. But I also see it your way as well. If you write the phrase down on paper, it doesn’t look sexual harassing at all. And in truth, if the statement comes deeper into the conversation, it’s usually okay with me. It suggests that we have perhaps been talking about something more innocuous or more interesting beforehand.

    I don’t know exactly how the questions were asked to get the responses the women gave, but hopefully my perspective can help.

  9. Though I’m a guy, I’ve long been uncomfortable with the objectification of women in general. I don’t see them as a collection of parts. And yet many millenials would say my view is outdated.

    I remember bringing up the TYT story about how football players were getting women lined up in hotel rooms they hadn’t even met, and how that seemed less human than the old way of just going to a bar and finding the groupie you actually hit it off with. A millenial friend yelled at me, saying transactional sex was not bad or wrong and I needed to give up my antiquated ideas.

    I’m not against hookup culture, but I think having sex with people you have no feelings for creates a lot of confusing borderline situations where one person thinks it’s a hook-up…. but asking, “Hey, we’re gonna have sex, right?” — if not asked very carefully — could be sexual harassment.

  10. Let me chime in on the Ansari/sexual harassment debate. First of all I understand both Ben’s (I wanna be part of a group/movement) and Brett’s (maybe they thought it was “the right way to answer”) notions here, I’m what they now call Xennial, established 1980, so maybe, I hope I can be a bridge builder :-)

    I can understand both, I’m there and I think most of us had those feelings at one point, but we have to address / reflect on the fact that there is an authoritarian side to both of those statements. I do see a lot of people these days holing back their opinions, because they fear the backlash – not the society I wanna live in.

    Also, we all have to get better at numbers. 30% of Millennials are somewhere in the broader anti-feminist, racist/bigoted, alt-right or even Nazi movement. 25% of Millennials think sending someone a naked pic unsolicited is not sexual assault, 10% of women overall think sexual intercourse without consent is not rape… 70%, 75%, 90% is bigger than 30%, 25% or 10%?! So don’t judge a generation by those facts. The spectrum of opinions is not that different through the generations. Millennials are just more honest and don’t try to hide their opinions, not on the right nor the left. Older generations tended to think 90% of the population were within the confines of a “main stream”, so they didn’t/don’t articulate their opinion in the way I described I fear earlier. Now the walls between our bubbles and silo’s have finally, after 20 years of Xennials pushing for it, almost entirely broken down. If they were more bubbles today then before (what a hell lot of people believe) we wouldn’t be aware of it, we wouldn’t be anxious or stressed out, but the walls are coming down – we’ve the chance to address the issues!

    We should trust women, society and Millennials to handle the situation and the future controversies the right way, Millennials are the most liberal, the most progressive generation, that is true. So we should have confidence that they’re not “all crazy”/over the top.

    My opinion on Ansari itself, how we should handle sexual assault and a comment o the actual debate itself including the Katie Way / Ashleigh Banfield dispute in my comment under the Friday PG
    https://tytnetwork.com/2018/01/19/post-game-january-19-2018/#comment-168317

    One last thing. We have to stop calling everyone that disagrees with us trolls or haters, that’s not helpful. And we shouldn’t go over the top every time ourselves. I’m sure you can criticize Ashleigh without attacking her looks or age, but we also can disagree with/criticize Katie Way or Grace without borderline victim shaming, accusing her of “destroying his life” or calling her a coward for staying anonymous either. Especially hence we’ve made the point a billion times ourselves that it’s not easy for a woman to come out with story like this. I’d like a little more compassion on both sides, both sides, many sides … many sides…

    By the way, I’ve read the NYT comment as well (but didn’t find it to be very convincing to be honest with you) and on the first day Cenk and Ana reported on it, I thought Cenk’s opinion was heavily informed byit – Thank you for (essentially ;-) ) confirming that :-)

  11. Telling someone they look good is NOT SEXUAL HARASSMENT and tbh that attitude just makes people perceive genuine sexual harassment as less significant. Classifying every little thing as assault is just plain stupid, it reduces every meeting between two people into a bloody assessment of behaviour instead of what it actually should be, which is a meeting for coffee or a dinner date. This ‘me too’ movement has been immensely important for women who have been GENUINELY affected by sexual harassment or abuse but it’s also given some stupid people a read to attack men who say “your hair looks nice today” or “nice top” as being guilty of something they’re not and these people need to understand- You’re NOT helping the movement, you’re HURTING it !. Not every man is out to ‘get you’ by giving you a compliment FFS ! Just calm the fuck down and stop seeing ‘Harvey Weinstein’ in every man who bothers to try and make conversation with you !!

    1. Telling someone they look good can easily be sexual harassment, especially in a professional setting. But even outside of that, sexual harassers find ways to make women uncomfortable and scared but then say, “but I was just complimenting her!” Women know the difference between someone who is being nice and someone who is being a dick. And here’s the thing: a compliment by definition is to make the person being complimented feel good. If you don’t know the person well enough to know if you are going to make them feel good by what you say, you can just keep your mouth shut. You shouldn’t make a compliment about you and what you like, a compliment is about the other person and how they feel.

      Here’s another thing, women are cautious BECAUSE they’ve already dealt with about a million Harvey Weinsteins in their life so when a man bothers them and tries to make conversation with them, they’re scared or annoyed that it’s just going to be that same situation again. As long as Harvey Weinsteins exist, why should the burden be on women not to make men feel like Harvey Weinsteins? If you act like a person, you’ll get treated like a person. If you act like you’re entitled to a women’s attention, you might get a perfectly reasonable annoyed response. It’s not up to women to make you feel good about yourself all the time.

  12. I think you miss my point. Most compliments are unsolicited, and most times unwanted. Most are not perceived as harassment, but di make us uncomfortable. That is coming from someone who understands context matters. I will repeat my question, since it was buried. To what end is the compliment given?

  14. Downloaded this a while ago and was listening to it in my car and that god damned turkey sandwich idea has been haunting me to the point that I had to log back in and comment. That might be worth all my donations and membership fees thru all these god damned years. I can’t wait to make one.

    1. some non-American made a comment a while back about “you Americans and your sandwich fixation,” or words to that effect. i think the Sandwich was a Gift of the Gods — IMO there are hardly more desirable foodstuffs than a properly-made “hand job” LOL. when i lived in New Orleans, i was fortunate to have eaten bot the Roast Beef Debris (both with and without Ham) Po’Boy from Mother’s AND the monumental Oyster Loaf at Casamento’s.

      in New Jersey, where i grew up, hoagies rule — AMEN — (hoagie weekend manufacture and sale once fueled a high school music group European concert tour!) — riffing off both the NJ hoagie and the NOLA muffaletta, i make my own version, called simply the Salad Sandwich, that requires sharp provolone, great olive salad, good hoagie bread, whatever veggies look good at the time. the bread MUST be anointed with oil & vinegar, and dried oregano and S&P cannot be left out. i don’t use meat, but i’m not averse to a meated version at all. the sammy must be prepped, wrapped completely, and left out at room temp, pressed under a heavy weight for a few hours (it’s up to you; whenever people feel hungry), so the flavors can marry. lettuce isn’t usually included, although something sharp like arugula is welcome, and i love the addition of thinly-sliced radishes. i haven’t made one in over ten years, but i still get requests … i still have one friend who remembers a Salmon Spread i made for a party literally 30 years ago; she still wants me to recall exactly how i made it — which i can’t do, since i cook by the seat of my pants — and claims that it’s the best spread she’s ever had. it WAS pretty good. i love my own cooking.

      so, here’s an idea — a TYT Sandwich & Spread Cookbook (or “Manual,” which i like more, ever since The Twilight Zone “To Serve Man” episode — “Don’t go! Don’t go! It’s a cookbook!” based on the Damon Knight SF story — link below) to add to your Merch. i don’t need clothes or coozies, but i would def buy such a manual! between — or is it “among”? — the staff & crew, friends, families, and commenters, there are surely more than enough ethnically diverse, taste-worthy entries. it could be EPIC! ’nuff said.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1o-3SYPRMY

  15. It’s not a “culture” thing. A quarter of Millennial women saying something doesn’t immediately make it part of our “culture”. Also, there has to be some sort of cutoff. The oldest millennial right now is in their mid 30’s. If you’re calling an 18 year old a millennial that’s an enormously large group of people who’ve led entirely different lives.

  18. For instance, I read an ‘expose’ on catcalling, essentially coming as close to doxxing as possible by getting selfie pictures posing with a pissed off blank face & targets said to be ‘catcallers’ with captions of what she says each said. There’s no way to actually find the people in terms of personal info but there’s their faces & the purported ‘quotes’. All of which may be entirely accurate but in rising pogrom ‘vigilante’ culture evidence doesn’t matter & anyone who wants it is a Nazi scumbag from Hell. Well on of them said the word ‘classic’, apparently. CLASSIC. So if crazy extremists full of hate remember the face they can harrass or harm this ‘evil rape-culture’ fiend who said the fucking word ‘classic’, supposedly.

    Regardless of whether they’re all accurate or not the message is, you should be afraid of harassement or much worse if you compliment women you don’t know. That is authortitarian insanity. That is a torso for not even an eye.

    It is an objective falsehood to claim saying ‘classic’ is catcalling sexual harassement. It’s not a mere disagreement. It’s not arguable. It’s a lie. It hurts no one. If a woman is triggered by all compliments of any kind the world MUST NOT stop giving compliments. We will not all go insane swallowing irrational lies that weaponize the public against innocent men trying to find sex or love or conversation.

    Millenials are awesome & I don’t believe the poll Cenk mentioned accurately depicts them. The methodology must be off. I hope it is. But if not, these lies can be unlearned. Declaritive statements don’t make anything true, as pursuasive as they can be. & We can become less pursuadable by them.

    Evidence matters. Definitions matter. Being disingenuous or not matters. Justice matters, not just for one group or some over others but for everyone.

    1. I’ve been Grace, but I have never thought to publicly shame my so called “offender”, because I don’t know if he would actually push if I had spoke my mind at the time. I personally feel that Katie Way & Babe could have used Aziz’s & “Grace’s” story to start a conversation about consent. My whole life I have been surrounded by prudes who deep down see sex as a taboo. So talking about anything that could lead to it.., uh uh, not gonna happen. I’m 32, so part of the older millennials, so maybe there has been some give on sex conversations, but I doubt it.

      Now that I got that out of the way, I hope you can believe me when I say that I too take issue with the vigilante justice photo’s. Not that I think they are all unjustified, but ANY vigilante actions make me nervous.

      As far as that poll, and your perception on how women perceive compliments or advances, I think I understand your perspective. However, every girl is different, and everyone has their limits. I can only tell you about my experiences, and why that compliment may be better kept to oneself.

      Now, I’m running on the assumption that you want to start a conversation with a woman and your motives are more than a one night stand. If that isn’t the case, then just be honest and say you just want a good time. Otherwise, you’re just an ass who likely lead her on, when she was thinking it could be more.

      EVERY generalized compliment I have gotten has been given while they are looking me up and down. Whether or not it is done with good intentions, it always left me feeling like a shower could not come soon enough. So, don’t do that. Gives me the heepie jeepies just thinking of it. I’m sorry if you feel scared to compliment a woman, but just know, most women have had an admirer that expressed their opinion in a less than ideal way. Its changed perception on compliments and added motives to it that we find repulsive.

      Giving a compliment on looks isn’t a great way to start a conversation, if that is the goal. That makes us uncomfortable more often than not. Because, we’re just existing, getting coffee, groceries, or whatever errand we’re running. We didn’t walk down the street in hopes of hearing praise. Sure, there ARE times we go all out and want to catch a few glances, but that usually involves social events. And believe me, we’re looking to see if you’re looking, she’ll catch your eye.

      So, if you REALLY need to compliment a woman when she’s probably just checking off her to do list, ask yourself what you want to compliment. Be specific. If all you want to say is, “You’re just looking good today.” Come on, really? Whose benefit is that for? What kind of a conversation do you think will branch off from that? Instead, if you chose something specific that caught your I and intrigues you, such as; a hat, shirt color, hair style, or makeup, you chances of actually having a conversation increases. But past a conversation…. eh… women would have to have a reason to be in the same place as the guy for a period of time to get a better feel for them. So if the compliment in paid to a woman that he has no reason to believe he’ll see again, then it really doesn’t matter. There isn’t a high likelihood she’ll postpone the rest of her day to just stop and talk to you. In short, outside of social events where it is expected to meet new people, treat her like a person.

      As for bars, stop just buying a drink, or even asking if you can buy one for us. I’m sure it is reliable enough, but as a strong, broke ass, independent, millennial woman, I can still buy my own drinks. I don’t want you to do me a favor and left me feeling obligated to you in one way or another. Just go up to her and introduce yourself. Ask her why she chose the fine establishment you have found her in. Ask her if she’s able to get out often to let loose or meet whatever objective she set out for this evening. If she’s interested, she’ll give you her name when you give yours, you’ll find out if she could be interested in continuing a conversation with you based on her reasoning for being where you both are and an idea of what kind of social life she may have. Note: If she’s out with her girlfriends, tell her you happy to have conversed then polity excuse yourself with the reason of not wanting to intrude on her friends. If you’re still interested, and she actually was too, she’ll stop you before you get to far if her girls night can be interrupted. If that doesn’t happen, she probably doesn’t want to have her friends think she blew them off, so she’ll talk to them about you and probably approach you later.

      That it in a nut shell. Make your intentions known and clear, but give her room to make a decision. You want her to make a decision. You want her to have the backbone to re-approach you or prevent you from exiting. You want a woman who is consciously aware of her actions and is able to act on them. So, don’t ask her if you can buy her a drink, she’ll ask you to, or playfully tell you to. If a woman cannot articulate and/or act on her own, its best to let her be. She may be shy, but “Grace” seemed to be a little taken back and shy at times with Aziz, and look how that turned out for both parties. She had legitimate trauma. I don’t deny that, and I feel for her. But until mind reading is a more common skill, we all have to advocate for ourselves, even though that can be just as scary.

      Back to the poll. Its sexual harassment due to being asked to go for drinks, I could see some millennial women associating the simple phrase “grab some drinks” with intentions to pursue more. Its an odd phrase. I mean, does it imply a platonic atmosphere, or romantic? If romantic, which is closer to sexual harassment then platonic ever will be, then shouldn’t there be some sort or previous interactions involved. Previous interactions should indicate if she would be receptive or not to the request. I don’t see how this question could be asked without some sort of interactions. If previous interactions are present, I don’t think a first request would be see as harassment, but repeated requests would. If interactions are absent, then it’s definitely uncomfortable for her, which some may perceive are harassment.

      For the second poll question, I would be willing to bet they didn’t comprehend the word nice. Their probably went to a time with unsolicited compliments, and that shaded their answer.

      Of course, there is a chance that some millennials lack experience to truly judge the situations and use the current climate to influence their perceptions.

  19. Let’s be clear, methodology on the poll might be an issue, but no. They’re just objectively wrong. Asking to buy a PERSON drinks or telling someone a compliment about how they look on a given day, when you don’t work with them is not harassement. 1/3 of Millenial women have been indoctrinated with falsehoods as a matter of power politics. Redefining words to weaponize them is dishonest dangerous manipulation. Anyone engaging in the practice knowingly should be challenged & that FACT should be highlighted instead of playing ‘both sides are equal’.

    Empathy for a woman’s reaction of course matters & if someone ignores disgust or disinterest or “no” in verbal or body language & unceasingly following them saying sexual things, THAT’S harassement. Redefining words to effectively criminalize compliments & offering to pay for things people are imbibing anyway is not okay & there’s no justification for it.

  20. Brett is great, in my book. Hilarious. Awkward etc.. i understand the urge to say he’s not old enough. That is taking it too litterally though, arguably. As I understand it the core of the show is being laid back & shooting the shit with friends with certain quasi-traditional patterns that emerged naturally like arguing or entirely enthusiastically arguing together in solidarity on food as if an electiin hung in the balance.

    It’s not a cash cow. It’s not a overly, or much at all produced thing with specific panel people to optimize audience entertainment or to meet all our preferences. It’s not tightly wound but about unwinding, & if they throw someone unconventional in, I say we, the audience, can deal with it & see what happens. Because it’s Old School. Not our show. You extinguish something vital about it if it becomes about anyone’s demands.

    I think we need to relax & understand it has it’s own essence. We have to let it be it’s own thing or it will become formulae & artifice instead of the luving thing it is.

    Do you want the robot comedy show? Or Old School? Do you want preferences met or discovery of freeform shenannigans off the top of the head? A program or a natural force of nature that doesn’t care about your plans ‘so here’s some random witty hilarious with stories instead’?

  21. I second Justin. No more Brett, please.

    I’m not exactly a fan of the younger hosts being on OS in the first place, but in the handful of options you have I’d rather hear Kim, or Jon, or whomever.

    The minute Brett goes on one of his convoluted, labyrinthian rants or analogies, I gotta turn the pod off early. I’m sure he is a nice guy but, gurghhh…

      1. I also disagree. I love Brett. He’s not making convoluted rants or analogies; he’s being careful with his words, in order to explain himself. It may not be concise, but it’s also less black & white, the way Cenk and Ben etc, can be. He’s being less aggressive, and arrogant, about his claims. I still love listening to Cenk and Ben’s silly assertions of facts that are subjective, but that’s less Brett’s style in serious conversations. It’s actually interesting that you would prefer Kim, or Jon, since they aren’t that much different. Jon is better at being concise than either Kim or Brett, though.

  23. You guys very much confused my Google Home. This amused me. Always love Old School. So glad it’s back at night, and uploaded quite fast! We’re winning so much it makes my head spin.

  24. Hear that Big Labowski sample, 50/50 authoritarian quota mongers? I guess you have your answer. Not gonna be a platform for your half-thought doctrinal prescriptions.

    It’s Old School people talking Old School things, regardless of the genitals you prefer to be present, male or female, & the people on the show happen to mostly have testicles. That’s not a bad thing. It’s an arbitrary thing. It has nothing to do with the fun banter content or your sad misunderstanding about what sexism is.

    You don’t care about sexism obviously, since excluding males to meet a quota simply because they’re male is actual systemic institutional sexism if it were adopted as policy. Ah, but you operate with a redefined definition of sexism, don’t you? So you can just deny being sexist as you argue men should be excluded for being men when no women have been excluded for being women. Forced 50/50 is sexist against men.

    Arguing about trivial subjective things like food preferences as if they were objectively correct or incorrect & saying fun borderline offensive irreverent things. Not representing critical theory or women’s studies because you complained. Old School is Old School. Not your school.

    So again, by all means, go make a platform to get your ideas out there. Because you won’t be twisting this platform that you didn’t work to build an audience for so you don’t have to bother coming up with anything original to hide the irrational hypocritical poison pills of your cult medicine inside.

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