Cenk and Ana present. 30 year resident of USA deported. Congress fights Jeff Sessions to protect states that legalized marijuana. Four police shot while responding to domestic disturbance call. Aziz Ansari accusations, and a nuanced discussion. HLN host blasts Aziz accuser. California couple arrested for torturing 13 kids. Birth control app used to prevent pregnancy, but some people didn’t get that result. Fox News guest says revealing Trump’s racism undermines our trust in him.
Comments
This is why the concept of “consent” is ridiculously stupid. The only thing that should matter is if someone is happy or upset, and that can be communicated in numerous ways, not just verbally. If someone gets upset later on when come to find out someone is a jerk, they can’t go back and delete their memories of sharing something positive with someone they now don’t like, nor should they be vindictive and claim it was all rape.
I think that is bull. She could have left at any time. He did hold her hostage. He didnt force her to take off her clothes.
It is ridiculous.
I was on the wall with Chelsea Manning’s announcement but the part that was not covered here, namely Demotrash thinktank and fundraising heads parroting out “Russia” like little wound up spring toys that pushed me over the edge. And then the 18 Senate votes today to effectively ensure a six year extension. Democrats are fine with putting these kinds of surveillance powers in the hands of a President they claim is deranged and a KKK sympathizing attorney Gen., and they are masterful fake news peddlers too. Went up straightaway and made a donation, will volunteer by making calls when her website is up.
She should run, and be absolutely unapologetic about what she did. Don’t try nuance, don’t try conciliation. They have and will continue to smear her to high heaven. If I were her, I would call out the actions of congress, senate and the military administration as unconstitutional, criminal and sociopathic, and repeat non-stop till every media outlet is forced to cover it. And each time they try to wag their fingers about what “men and women in uniform do everyday to….”, respond with a stinging slap by telling them soldiers in a deceitful war built on lies and malicious self interests suffer and die for no good reason, and the perpetrators of such wars are criminals against the country and all of humanity. Can’t wait for her campaign to start. Victory or no victory, let this be a campaign that drags the Feinsteins, Heitkamps, Schiffs, Jones and Neera Tandens of the world through the pits of hell of their political lives.
From how the article sounded she said no verbally at least 2 times. I also read an article in cosmopolitan today that pointed out that this might not be sexual assault but its still an important conversation to have about how frequently women/people are pressured into sex. Also if its not a verbal yes its a no, plain an simple. If you just stand there and watch someone steal your car because you’re in shock they still stole your car. IF THEY DON’T SAY YES THEN IT ISN’T A YES, I’m kind of disappointed that you guys are saying just because they didn’t say anything they were agreeing and consenting. If you ask someone if they want a cup of tea and they don’t respond you wouldn’t pour it down their throat. Also Ana said she’s been in shockingly similar situations, so have I and I think it would be hard to find a woman who hasn’t been in that situation. You have to have verbal consent or enthusiastic participation, mumbling and pulling away is not enthusiastic
I agree. I feel an unenthusiastic reaction (mumbling and disinterest) to overtly sexual overtures is a no. An enthusiastic reaction to those overtures can be interpreted as a yes, but that doesn’t seem to be the case here. Men have to know that putting enough pressure on a woman to have sex, like blocking a doorway or jumping straight to oral sex, can amount to rape or sexual assault. I think people want to give Aziz the benefit of the doubt because he’s a got a friendly face and he seems like a nice guy. Situations like this though, show that women’s bodies aren’t seen as 100% their own. I love the car analogy because you don’t have to verbally object to someone stealing your car for it to be grand theft auto, but if it’s your own body you need to be verbally on the record for it to be rape or sexual assault. I don’t fault Aziz for not being the most forward thinking person in America and it sucks for him that his name is now associated with such a terrible stigma, but through stories like these being shared our society can get to a better place. Hopefully Grace’s generation is the last generation that has to put up with this kind of shit.
“this might not be sexual assault but its still an important conversation to have about how frequently women/people are pressured into sex”
Ok, and that’s a really good conversation that needs to happen. It’s so true and it’s difficult because nobody in the history of the world has ever said “welcome to my house, would you like to engage in some hot sex?” (and the reason people don’t ask is because that is seen as ‘overly sexual and creepy’) so there isn’t even an opportunity for the other person to say “no, I don’t want sex”, instead it’s usually something like “maybe next time” or “I have to get up early tomorrow”. Maybe we should take a cue from the kink community where sex acts are negotiated heavily beforehand with very clear boundaries and very clear expectations. This is the lack of nuance that Ana pointed out. We’ve established a clear problem (women’s consent being violated) but no clear guidance on what SHOULD be done since apparently almost every single step along the courtship process can be interpreted as sexual assault/harassment.
If I go on a date, how should I act? It’s a question I’m really not sure of because apparently, even if I stopped when she said no, I could still be accused of sexual assault or harassment as Aziz just did. Apparently, I’m not even allowed to compliment a woman’s appearance (which I’ve done dozens of times just to be nice) or else I might be considered a sexual harasser by 1 in 4 millennial women.
But if it’s not sexual assault, then it’s unfair to label an experience as sexual assault or accuse someone of being a sexual assaulter. The article was, in my opinion, over-sensationalized and did more harm than good to the MeToo movement. Now anyone who had their doubts (who are deporable for not believing the myriad of women) can just point to this and say “see? Now apparently if I get the wrong type of wine she might accuse me of sexual assault, therefore everything is all made up!” and it makes it drastically more difficult to actually have the important conversations that needed to be had.
“If you ask someone if they want a cup of tea and they don’t respond you wouldn’t pour it down their throat.”
This is a great analogy for sexual assault, but that’s not what Aziz did and I think it’s disingenuous to imply that Aziz ‘poured it down her throat’. To follow your analogy, Aziz asked if she wanted a cup of tea. He got no response, so he asked again. Not out of malice, in his mind maybe she just didn’t hear the question or maybe she wasn’t comfortable for a cup of tea yet and might like a cup of tea at a later point in time. When she gave the answer of “no”, he said “ok, that’s fine” and didn’t give her the cup of tea. He did not proceed to violate her consent and force her to have tea (or sex).
If Aziz had shoved tea (or anything else) down her throat without her consent, we would not be having this conversation. He’d (deservedly) right be alongside Harvey Weinstein. But I really want to emphasize that it’s unfair to characterize what he did as a violation of consent since it’s very clear that he did his best to respect her consent when it was verbally expressed.
100% this. I am so disappointed in them today. It feels like they didn’t even read the story or selectively left parts out. If they know neither of them gets it, why not get a host on the panel that does?
What is Ana referencing when she says that people with political agendas are making accusations that are politically motivated?
So many people are arguing against mind reading and/or non-verbal cues when it comes to rejecting sexual advances, but somehow think both is OK in signaling you want to have sex? If she never explicitly said “yes”, what gave him the impression he could proceed if he can’t read non-verbal cues..?
I couldn’t agree with Cenk and Ana more. Non-verbal ques? You’ve got to be kidding me. Like Nancy Reagan used to say, “Just say NO.” If the man precedes, then that would be sexual assault but he cannot read your mind. This started as an heroic movement and a watershed moment in Western society but we’re getting into ‘reign of terror’ territory here. Just as a note, I can’t even compliment (in a non-professional setting) someone now? Can they complement me then? I thought we were supposed to be striving toward equality of genders?
She never explicitly said “yes” though? So it looks to me as if you’re perfectly fine with non-verbal cues as long as they imply you want to have sex, only if you don’t it has to be verbal..?
People misread non-verbal cues all the time. He could’ve misread all of her cues that night. Both the wanting sex in the beginning and the not wanting sex when he undressed her…. however, if I manage to undress a woman without her resisting a little bit, how is that an ok for a sexual altercation?
Edit: how is that NOT an ok for a sexual altercation
I came to just say that I disagree pretty strongly with Ana and Cenk’s assessment of the Aziz situation. My first and probably most minor gripe was with the presentation of the story, there were many details (which represented the sheer number of times, I literally lost count, where she showed in show way that she was uncomfortable enough that Aziz stopped pursuing sex with her. I actually at first got linked to abridged article, maybe that happened for you all too. As well as the aggressiveness by which he would return to pursuing sex with her). But most importantly I disagree with the overall assessment that these types of stories hurt the MeToo movement (I agree the article it self and how it was written were shotty, but not the conversation that this specific situation brings up). Just like the march on Selma was not about a literal fight against deeply racist people in Alabama, but an effort to show the moderate white America (who was still complicit in racism) the true cruelty of racism and pull on the conscious of America. This situation (not this one specifically, but the jist) is type of situation that is at the heart of the movement. I feel that you both spent 70 or 80 % of you commentary talking about how the women (or any person) has a responsibility to speak out and DENY sex. I feel that’s wrong in two ways, first being that the reason women don’t speak up is because the environment that has been created in all of modern history that has socialized them be passive in these situations. So to place blame (Which i feel you guys did, not directly by focusing on that soo much more than Aziz’s actions) isn’t right or fair. Secondly, again you guys continued to focus more of how people has responsibility to better at verbalizing that they don’t want to have sex. That reinforces that the REAL responsibility lies in ASKING for someone’s permission BEFORE you engage them in act, instead engaging and then waiting for a denial. I don’t think this was sexual assault, I saw it being labels as sexual misconduct from the sources I looked at. I think Aziz’s wrong (not criminal or even severely reprehensible) lies in the sheer number of times he ignored that he never received any reasonable level of affirmative consent and continued to try and have sex. I don’t in fact the that the Bill Cosbys and Harvey Ws of the world are what we should focus on, because everbody knows they are monsters; there just seemed to be sick culture in media/Hollywood of protecting them. The message that matters to the masses is in fact this Aziz story, because it shows how we all hold wrong ideas when it comes to sexual conduct. That’s how Rape/Entitlement culture is pervasive throughout our country, not those monsters.
I know that was ton lol. You guys do a great job, I just disagree with you both on this one. Keep up the good fight!
“how people has responsibility to better at verbalizing that they don’t want to have sex. That reinforces that the REAL responsibility lies in ASKING for someone’s permission BEFORE you engage them in act, instead engaging and then waiting for a denial.” Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you!
I like the entirety of your post and couldn’t agree more. The irony is, they all say “we can’t expect someone to read minds”, but they want people to mind read each other, they arguing for it if they reject the concept of affirmative consent. “Oh so a man has to have a written contract” etc. nonsense imply that people WANT to rely on non-verbal cues…
“25% of millenial women consider being asked for a drink to be harassment.” Have we reached peak SJW yet? The left is being eaten from both sides, from the corporate dem right and the batshit crazy sjw/pc/identity politics left.
Cenk just got thrown out of his own organization by these lunatics. Ready to fight back yet Cenk?
I’ve always been annoyed at hearing and reading conservatives complain and bitch about SJW. At some levels it looks pathetic to keep SJW in all your commentary(i.e. right wingers like Jordan Peterson, Milo, Ben Shapiro, all other right wingers). But in some circumstances I can actually see and understand the absurdity of certain actions taken by “SJW”. However, here’s the thing…when you start to inject political commentary on it and attempt to strawman a whole political group(anyone not a right wing conservative etc.) nobody who I consider normal and sane would give you attention. This is the problem with the alt-right and others that attempt to use crazy ass SJW actions as a political battering tool. AKA fox news loves this shit and is why we have the political mess we have today.
Instead of awaiting a national conversation on SJW I would like to get through a national conversation of right wing terrorism that is sweeping the nation and how a huge political group is fighting tooth and nail against basic truths in this world. I think that’s a better and more interesting conversation than talking about some people’s hurt feelings.
There are bigger problems than SJW’s. If you can’t see that then you probably need to take a step back and observe that the world around you and engage with it.
/rant
@naseemgolabi
There were a lot of comments in the same vain, but instead of going through the list I’m just going to address you because yours was the most upsetting.
No one, I repeat NO ONE made you question whether your assault was your fault except YOU. You took what Cenk and Ana said and applied it to your own experience, which says YOU still have more work to do on your healing because if you truly believed that it wasn’t your fault (which it wasn’t), then a story like this wouldn’t be able to shake that faith. By taking their statements to heart you are contributing to the destruction of the conversation because that woman absolutely had the agency and ability to walk away; and even if she has a complex childhood, added by the socialization of women, previous dating history, and the unpredictable nature of fight, flight, and freeze all coming together to make her FEEL like she is trapped and has no right/ability to speak up and just goes along. That is NOT what was actually happening in that moment and NOT the fault of Aziz for not knowing that she was experiencing that in the moment. What she needs is to learn assertiveness so that she can clearly communicate her boundaries to others and YES men can be physically imposing and women can feel like their life could be put in danger, but AGAIN is that an accurate assessment of the CURRENT situation (not the one you may have been in in the past or herd from a friend. That person is not currently in the room or the one asking for your consent) or is there something from the past that is making you feel scared or give up your agency when there’s no need to (the building blocks of PTSD).
So in essence it sounds like both you and “Grace” were triggered by events from your past that made you feel guilt and shame in a situation that didn’t required it. The difference is that you took to the TYT message board and didn’t name names, she made herself anonymous and put his name in the headline.
This is disgusting. You are telling someone that was sexually assaulted that they are harming the conversation about sexual assault? Aziz started performing oral sex on her without getting consent. You can’t just do anything you want to someone until they say no. Consent is affirmative. The reason why you can’t get consent from someone who is unconscious. They’re also not saying no right?
Ahhh, ahhh, ahhh, ahhh)
Whatever happened to predictability.
The milkman, the paperboy, evening tv?
How did I get to living here?
Somebody tell me please!
This old world’s confusing me.
With clouds as mean as you’ve ever seen
Ain’t a bird who knows your tune.
Then a little voice inside you Whispers,
Kid don’t sell your dreams, so soon
Everywhere you look, everywhere you go
There’s a heart (There’s a heart), a hand to hold onto.
Everywhere you look, everywhere you go
There’s a place, of Somebody who needs you
Everywhere you look.
When you’re lost out there and you’re all alone,
A light is waiting to carry you home.
Everywhere you look.
Everywhere you look.
(Chip-a-dee-ba-ba-dow)
I don’t where that’s from but it’s beautiful.
@ajevans145
That’s really insightful my friend. You changed my perspective on this. It’s a really complex social experiment happening here. Probably good at least because it sparked a conversation.
Based on the SJW warriors here, I suggest that all men (and women) carry with them at all times a contract detailing the sexual activity they are pursuing and ask their potential partners to sign before engaging in sexual activity because the way extreme feminists have taken this issue to would necessitate men (and women) to have the minds of Jedis in order to read what the “mental cues”.
In reading about the Aziz Ansari account, I was reminded of a TYT story from last year. It was about teaching BDSM in sex ed classes as a way to open up communication and make concent clear. At the time I thought it was a silly story but in reading the babe.com article and many of the columns after it does seem that communication around sex is needed for both men and women from an early age to avoid things like this.
100% agreement! No matter on which side you come out of the issue(s), communicate, communicate, communicate and learn to see other people’s perspective! BDSM is a whole other ball game and I’ve seen and heard so much BS about it. Without communication, there is no BDSM. Without safe words, there is no BDSM. Continuing after a safe word is uttered IS NOT BDSM. Period.
I gotta say that I a bit dismayed on how many SJW’s are in the TYT audience. Sad.
As a 50+yo woman, the Aziz story sounded like a shitty date.
I’ve been in that situation, and never went out with the guy again. End of story.
I wasn’t traumatized and had to use the old school “social media” of the time – tell my girlfriends over beers.
When the “new standard” is that if a man says a woman “looks nice today,” and that is considered harassment, things have gone over the edge. I fear this just gives all the ACTUAL harassers ammo to say, “See? Women complain about the littlest thing. Don’t pay attention to accusers, it’s all nonsense.”
Have Cenk & Ana talked about the Michael Douglas story?
About the employee he had in the 80’s who said he had used raunchy language IN FRONT of her. Not that he directed it AT her, but in front of her, while speaking to other people. She then ends the story with, “Oh, and then one time he also masturbated in front of me.”
All of which, he of course, denies.
I am watching tyt here and dont know exactly what Norway has to do with all this? I am from Norway and here we do not support Trump or what he stands for. Yes we are very progressive country but we dont need Trumps help at all!! We support the people of America that are being harrassed by Trump and his “core supporters”. We watch what is happening and hope that Mueller find the “money trail”. Because that is where Trump has a big problem. No US bank would at the end give him anymore loans so where did he go?? Its not a math problem. See who are buying his appartments and invest in his buildings.. Russian oligarks. Mueller are going after Trump for money laundering and not “collusion” during the Presidential campaign.
As I have written before there is one thing I wish all american could have is free hospital. Because this is about life and death situations for many people.
White supremacists have a preoccupation with Scandinavia. They often believe that the northern countries (Denmark, Sweden, and Norway. Finland is Uralic, which I’m sure you know) have the most “racially pure” white populations. I believe (but am not certain) that this is because many of the older immigrants (pre-1880) to the USA tended to be from English, Scandinavian, and German countries. Definitely fact-check me though.
I love your POVs and I definitely second, third and fourth your recurring demand to have “more established” ( ;-) ) female voices on the show! On this one I have to disagree though. How can he have gotten consent from her, if she never said “yes”, if he can’t read non-verbal cues or her mind? Hell of a thing to , apparently assume, before putting your fingers or dick anywhere..?
Wow, re: Aziz, love the tyt take, and Ashleigh was awesome!
Also, this daily exposure to the: lying, repulsive, rapacious Republicans and the elected grifters and dotard in the democratic establishment is making me ill, I need to take a news break for awhile, …but, I still love you guy:)
Wow, Cenk and Ana’s commentary on the Aziz Ansari story is incredibly disappointing. They say that these kinds of narratives coming out are damaging to the metoo movement, but it’s actually their commentary in this hour that I feel is damaging to people who have experienced sexual assault. It’s incredibly disturbing that Cenk and Ana, as well as the news anchor ranting, are framing women as responsible for what happens to them by saying that they can just get up and leave…it’s really not that easy.
Ana says that she’s sick of other people deciding whether she is a victim or not, yet she seems to be imposing her view of who can and can’t be victims on other people, which is extremely hurtful and emotionally damaging.
Personally, I have loved Cenk and Ana for so long and always respect them even if I disagree, but this is different. Although my personal experiences with sexual assault are different from the one described here, TYT’s commentary on this issue has affected me deeply and makes me feel like I was responsible for what happened to me in the past since I wasn’t “strong enough” to run away.
Also, they did a pretty bad job at actually conveying the details of this story.
I heard the story and comments from other sources, and apparently the “victim” in this case had a “bad date” with Ansari and decided to go to the media to ruin his entire life. There are details that other women are questioning, like the fact that she recounted giving “mental clues” to Ansari to stop. That is what can damage a movement like the MeToo. If people start doubting the stories of real victims, it will be a disaster.
So, the comments from Ana and Cenk are in line with the substance of the story.
Agreed. This story has me and my Wife so conflicted but on the same page. We aren’t too far out of the dating scene, got hitched up a few years ago and it seems to have changed so much with online apps and casual hookups etc…
I’m a gen X’er and this is easily a Brave New World of amorous intent, glad to have been ringed up and out of the mix since it’s a mess out there. Good luck young ones, hope you all find your match and keep the creepy stuff for those who consent to it.
I think some young and naive women might try some adventure, and it they don’t like it they have to blame the guy to stop filling guilty about themselves. Might be a puritanical issue, not sure. Maybe parents making her feel dirty about sex. I feel sorry for Ansari since apparently he did all the right things and still is causing him problems. Sex might be overrated :)
SJW’s like you hurt the Me Too movement. It’s as if you didn’t even listen to what they said after they said they weren’t supporting “Grace”.
I was moved by your reply here. I agree with you because I’ve known a lot of females who are very passive. When they find themselves in a man’s apartment and don’t know the man very well, and suddenly he becomes very aggressive, a passive woman doesn’t know what this man is capable of, and how could she? “5 minutes ago he was very friendly, and now he’s acting domineering and rude. Who’s to say this guy isn’t a killer or a rapist? If I say no, will he hurt me?” The safest route out of there would probably seem to be to satisfy the man and get out of there.
To be clear, this is a scenario that would plague only a very passive, deferential, woman, and hopefully one day the world will be a place where all women have a voice, an assertive voice, and an environment where men can no longer take advantage of them if they say no.
But in that she was so eager to go to the press and so outspoken about her experience with Aziz kinda quashes the idea that “Grace” is one of the passive, wounded birds, of whom I mentioned. Dang, it’s such a delicate topic.
No, I agree with your first post. It’s NOT NECESSARY for a woman to say no, she HAS TO say “Yes!”. Period.
It is indeed disappointing how many people seem to think a m,an can do anything he wants unless she clearly says “No!” I thought we already agreed that consent has to be given first? If he can’t mind read and doesn’t get verbal cues and she never said “yes”, how can he 100% sure then that consent was given?
If there is no yes, you can’t stick your fingers or penis anywhere – somehow that’s a new concept in 2018!
OT
damn I’m angry right now, can’t stop commenting on the same issue :-)
but it’s tiring to read the same thing over and over and over again and have no idea why people all of a sudden think that. O’Reilly talked about falafels and nobody asked her to say “No”?!? #confused
Thank you for sharing. I’m sorry that this story brought that up for you.
@PEPPERWINDU
YOUR FEMINAZI SJW REGRESSIVE NARRATIVE IS FULL OF SHIT! LOOK UP THE ACTUAL FACTS, ALSO TELL ME AGAIN HOW MANY SHELTERS WONT EVEN ACCEPT MALE VICTIMS? GET RED PILLED FAGGOT!
Speedball still paying membership fees just to troll eh?
Your commitment to trolling is simultaneously among the most impressive and saddest things I have seen online.
HENCE WHY THEY ARE KNOWN AS REGRESSIVES! THEY DO NOT ADVANCE THE CONVERSATION ON THE ISSUES THEY CLAIM TO SUPPORT.
On Ice: Yes, Cenk, this is what Jimmy Dore voted for (Donald Trump being able to kick out the dreamers). Elections have consequences.
Marijuana: I could live with Congress protecting MEDICAL marijuana programs in the states, but not recreational use. That’s a compromise and I think that’s as much as you’re going to get out of many, many people. As to past Presidents smoking pot, I can’t speak to that, but I can tell you here in Texas it was common knowledge that as Governor, George W. Bush held frequently all-night parties fueled by Cocaine. I don’t have first hand knowledge of it, but given all the brain damage that man had I believe it.
#MeToo: Do we know how much wine was consumed? How much wine did Aziz have relative to how many he served “Grace”? Perhaps one of them remembers things differently than the other from alcohol, not animus, is that possible? Also, in the East Asia countries like India and Pakistan, I know that the “norms” of behavior about sex and sexual cues are vastly different from the views typical of an American. I don’t know if that is in play here or not, but it’s something I’d like to hear discussed before I condemn either Aziz or “Grace”.
What the hell are you talking about? Dore voted for Jill Stein in CALIFORNIA. Clinton would have won the state by 30 points no matter who Jimmy voted for.
2/3 of the country support legalization of marijuana. A “compromise” that keeps throwing young people into private prisons for non-violent, victim-free crimes is worthless.
Aziz was born and raised in the US. The idea that his ancestry has an effect on his sexual behavior sounds a bit racist.
dratheart is a troll account
And what makes me a “troll account”? I’m a real person. I probably don’t pass the “progressive litmus test” or worship at the feet of Bernie Sanders but I’m certainly real (sadly- I wish I wasn’t most days, I really really do).
As to Dore in CA: He encouraged his viewers all over the country to not vote for Hillary. And how many people in states that WERE critical “voted their conscience” because they thought the outcome was certain and their vote didn’t matter?
It doesn’t matter what Jimmy ‘encourages’ others to do, he doesn’t vote for anyone but himself. Let people vote for who they want, let people make their own adult choices. Unless Jimmy voted for Trump, your statement is utter bullshit so stop making it.
Aziz Ansari is from South Carolina not India. As to the accusation, as others said, this is a classic case of “Bad Date Syndrome” but since she is a bitch she decided to complain about it.
I didn’t know that Aziz was from SC, I was mistaken and apologize. However I believe either Ana or Cenk or both referred to his cultural heritage as possibly being part of the equation as well. I’d never heard of the guy before so I google him, get his Wikipedia entry as the first hit and the first line read: “Aziz Ismail Ansari (born February 23, 1983) is an Indian-American actor, comedian, and filmmaker.” I didn’t read the full bio, again, my mistake. It was in part due to my seeing “Indian-American” which made me think immigrant. It will be easier for all of us to tell who was born in America or not when all the racial groups in this country start referring to themselves as simply AMERICAN. Furthermore, his parents did immigrate from India and I believe the cultural upbringing of the parents does often play SOME role in the way they raise their child. Is my mistake more understandable now? Again, I apologize for the mistake.
No, neither one of them mentioned his cultural heritage as being a possible reason, I watched the segment again to make sure after reading your comment. That came from your own head.
Ok, I suck then, my apologies.
She should have known it was just a “hookup” from the beginning, but her naivety and ego tricked her into believing he might want to be her boyfriend! Just dumb. Poor Aziz. Let’s not execute/emasculate the good guys, like was done with Al Franken and Garrison Keillor.
Did the story say how old “Grace” is? Was she much younger (and therefore maybe more naive?)?
Cenk and Ana didn’t mention it, but the clip of the woman lambasting ‘Grace’ said she was 23 years old.
Thank you so much for discussing the Aziz story. I read it and I was just so confused. I talked to my son about it and he had some good points but it still didn’t sit well with me. She never said yes. As a person who has been married for over 20 years, I will tell you, dudes don’t read minds. Some people just don’t take to non verbal cues at all and can’t figure that out. My son has some issues and he doesn’t understand non verbal cues and even facial expressions. At this point, there has to be an actual verbal “Do you want to have sex? Would it be ok to fool around?” or what ever else they want to do. Then there has to be a very clear, “Yes.” And there has to be the understanding that either person can say no and things have to stop. Period. I think the thing that’s lacking for me here is the clear no from her and you just can’t use non verbal cues. Not everyone understand those.
“the thing that’s lacking for me here is the clear no from her” that shouldn’t be necessary! I agree with the rest of your post “hen there has to be a very clear, ‘Yes.'” THAT’s what’s lacking here! If I’m not sure, and how can I if I can’t read minds, don’t get non-verbal cues and he apparently never asked, I do not stick my dick or my fingers anywhere, I don’t remove someone’s clothes, I don’t touch nor lick them. Period.
I wish they would stop saying “he or she” when it comes to domestic violence. 90% or maybe more are men beating on women. There is such a thing as being too lib. Most abusers are chicken shit so they don’t beat on someone who can take them.
Also, the last story. I was afraid of this. I have been worried that ppl will take the “me too” movement too far and once again women will be ignored when they get harassed or assaulted. If someone wants to have sex and you don’t that is not an assault. Harassment is only that if the person doesn’t stop.
On the subject of domestic violence …
Speaking as a man who was physically abused, consistently, nearly every day from a female member of my family since I was a child until I moved out of my house and away from my sister, I’m curious where you get that 90% figure from. I certainly feel that male abusers outnumber female abusers, but I also know that male victims are not taken seriously, and female abusers are not perceived as dangerous. We are laughed off or just sometimes met with a shrug, a tension-breaking joke, a blank stare, and then being ignored.
Personally, I appreciate it when it is recognized that sometimes men are the victims. I feel like when people say it’s only men that abuse women, it makes it harder for a guy like me to get anyone to believe it was as bad as I say it was. I tell people about it but the information never gets to them. It feels like it ricochets off, or goes over their head, they understand it on a surface level but they feel I’m exaggerating.
I don’t know. I’m not saying you should change your opinion, but I definitely wanted to share with you my perspective.
Thank you for saying that. Beat me to it, actually.
I’m glad you two discussed the Aziz Ansari incident. I read the story on babe and I was hoping you would bring it up on the show. I completely agree, although I am bummed that you didn’t discuss one of the biggest issues in the story–when they first got back to the apartment, after she’s on the counter, he was going down on her. So far, I haven’t heard that detail mentioned in any of the news outlets when talking about this. The reason I found this important is because she had ample time, as the receiver, to say it was heading in a direction she didn’t like and to STOP. Women DO have to speak up, especially on a date. No one can read your mind. If you don’t like something or a direction you’re headed, just say so. Before I was married, I had dates that I did just that. Women in my age group (37) and older, were still part of a group that was told, “If a guy tries something that you don’t like, say it and loud. Scream if you have to. Bite, punch, kick. Get out.” It may have been dramatic and would be in many situations, but the point was, speak up and don’t let a man force you into anything.
Another interesting point to me was that, in the article, she claimed she gave both verbal and non-verbal cues as to how she was feeling, but in the texts she posts as proof, she only mentions her “non-verbal” cues. When she said she wanted to leave, he called her a cab. He was the one who suggested they put their clothes back on. She says she felt rushed through dinner (she didn’t get to finish her wine), but she went willing back up to his apartment after. In dating, usually going up (whether to a woman’s or a man’s apartment) after a date, the point is usually sex. Did they talk about playing board games during dinner? Was there a reason she believed that she was going BACK up to his apartment for something other than sex? Since the date began there and then they walked to dinner, there really wouldn’t be a point in going back up to his apartment after, right? But, let’s say she thought they would “hang out.” When he began forcefully kissing her and pulling off her clothes and going down on her, it would have been the perfect moment to find a voice and say, “Hey, I’m not into this. I don’t want to have sex and you seem pretty forceful, so I’ll just go.” And then leave.
I’m not saying he’s a wonderful guy and personally, I don’t even find him funny. I found his character on Parks and Rec irritating and his comedy just isn’t for me. He didn’t hold her down as she screamed for help. He didn’t lock the door so she couldn’t leave. This is now a time where people are completely comfortable with Tinder fuck meetings, where names don’t even have to be exchanged. I’m not surprised that he would hope for sex and my guess would be that he’s had plenty of “hook-ups.” That’s fine. I’m really not sure why she stayed around if he kept “forcing his fingers” down her throat, which is a weird thing to do and would have been my cue to leave right there. I don’t know why she expected him to comfort her and play with her hair. They barely know each other, so it’s not as if he’s her boyfriend. And when he asked for a blow job, there’s a simple word to stop that…”No.”
If she felt forced, that is very different from him physically forcing her head down onto his penis. She did so willingly, though she said she felt “really pressured.” Why? You have a mind of your own, a voice and already decided you didn’t want to have sex. There was no point in staying at this point. There is a difference between force and just “going along.” There has to be some personal responsibility somewhere. We can’t expect anyone to read our minds and this is not a situation where he was exerting his influence on her as a boss or forcing her despite her protests.
This seems like a bad date and that’s a pretty crappy reason to ruin someone’s career. If her date hadn’t been Aziz, and had been some guy named John Smith, this never would have been an article. Everywhere across America, regular women have been molested, raped, forced into sex with bosses, touched inappropriately by CEO’s. These are the majority of #MeToo but, in today’s movement, there is barely a word about them. The men who force women to give BJs to get overtime aren’t scared that Harvey Weinstein got caught. He’s a celebrity and so far, #MeToo hasn’t made the news over some small company foreman being let go because he forced himself on his subordinates.
There is a difference between a guy who masturbates in front of women without consent, one who makes inappropriate comments and one who is forcing rape. They are all awful, and all damaging to the victim, but they are not equal. Aziz Ansari sounds like he doesn’t know how to kiss properly, but the only forcing that went on here was in her own mind.
Wow, that second hour was a power hour. I have to agree with the positions here, and it asks for an even deeper question due to our loss of physical social interactions. We don’t have this “oh let’s hang out and talk” situations going on on most of USA anymore.
Based on my interactions in cities, those that do have those social interactions, they’d agree with talking and civility are much better than magical physical cues, but that’s not a skill being fomented at the moment due to the online culture.
The societal changes are staggering and there’s no way they’re changing since it’s becoming less and less a social exercise and more of a close friends exercise where outsiders are usually shunned and avenues to socialized are being reduces more and more.
Graces description sounds just like a TSA experience, I didn’t get the seat I wanted I was rushed to take off my clothes and was uncomfortably grouped. And no didn’t mean anything. His bad to assume as most women like white wine. But wanting to be soothed kind of implies she was conditionally engaged in continuing. But fem101 all sexual will is rape and all moral regret is transposed onto the man. Decoding and wooing women is as dangerous as swimming with sharks.. Totall celibacy! Tapped out.
why did he HAVE TO push her? She dosn’t have to say NO, she HAS TO say yes –
we’re in 2018, yet somehow that’s still a new concept for people…
Cenk and Ana: You guys really dropped the ball on this Aziz Ansari thing and it is clear that you didn’t even read the “babe” story in its entirety. If you had read it, you would have known, first of all, that the non-verbal cues were so blatant and so persistent that no reasonable person could have misinterpreted them, and secondly, that Ansari continued to make advances toward Grace AFTER she verbally told him to stop.
To the first point: Grace attempted many times to physically move herself away from Ansari in a completely obvious way. Quoting the article: “”Ansari also physically pulled her hand towards his penis multiple times throughout the night, from the time he first kissed her on the countertop onward. “He probably moved my hand to his dick five to seven times,” she said. “He really kept doing it after I moved it away.” But the main thing was that he wouldn’t let her move away from him. She compared the path they cut across his apartment to a football play. “It was 30 minutes of me getting up and moving and him following and sticking his fingers down my throat again. It was really repetitive. It felt like a fucking game.””
Any man with half a brain would know that if a woman keeps moving her hand away from your dick and you have to keep grabbing it and moving it back, and if she keeps getting up in the middle of you performing a sexual act with her and you have to chase her around, she’s probably not that into you, pal.
To the second point, here is a quote from the article showing that Ansari ignored Grace’s VERBAL statements: “She told babe that at first, she was happy with how he reacted. “He said, ‘Oh, of course, it’s only fun if we’re both having fun.’ The response was technically very sweet and acknowledging the fact that I was very uncomfortable. Verbally, in that moment, he acknowledged that I needed to take it slow. Then he said, ‘Let’s just chill over here on the couch.’” This moment is particularly significant for Grace, because she thought that would be the end of the sexual encounter — her remark about not wanting to feel “forced” had added a verbal component to the cues she was trying to give him about her discomfort. When she sat down on the floor next to Ansari, who sat on the couch… Ansari instructed her to turn around. “He sat back and pointed to his penis and motioned for me to go down on him. And I did. I think I just felt really pressured. It was literally the most unexpected thing I thought would happen at that moment because I told him I was uncomfortable.”… Halfway into the encounter, he led her from the couch to a different part of his apartment. He said he had to show her something. Then he brought her to a large mirror, bent her over and asked her again, “Where do you want me to fuck you? Do you want me to fuck you right here?” He rammed his penis against her ass while he said it, pantomiming intercourse. “I just remember looking in the mirror and seeing him behind me. He was very much caught up in the moment and I obviously very much wasn’t,” Grace said. “After he bent me over is when I stood up and said no, I don’t think I’m ready to do this, I really don’t think I’m going to do this. And he said, ‘How about we just chill, but this time with our clothes on?’” They got dressed, sat side by side on the couch they’d already “chilled” on, and he turned on an episode of Seinfeld… While the TV played in the background, he kissed her again, stuck his fingers down her throat again, and moved to undo her pants.”
If someone has just told you they are “not ready” to have sex and you explicitly, verbally agree to just “chill” with your clothes on and THEN YOU TRY TO UNDO HER PANTS, you are a shitbag and you should know better.
So no, Ansari is guilty as charged. If you had had the competence to fully read the babe article and accurately represent it in this segment, you would have come to the same conclusion.
Thank you!
This story is relevant to the metoo movement because its on the spectrum of behaviors that we are and have been fighting against – no one is entitled to our body without our consent, woman or man, work place or date. I don’t owe you sex, and I don’t owe you an explanation beyond ‘I don’t want to’! His behavior as described is disgustingly predatory and needs to be called out as such. This whole story makes me so fucking frustrated. I can’t remember the last time I watched a story on TYT and disagreed so wholeheartedly on pretty much every point made.
Cenk and Ana were right about the Aziz story. He didn’t do anything wrong other than missing her non-verbal ques which can happen when someone is caught up in a moment like that no matter how obvious you think the ques might be.
Her story is more than a little questionable. Why would she spend 30 minutes just trying to avoid him in the apartment when he clearly wanted to have sex and she didn’t rather than just saying something? Why would she assume the encounter was over when they are sitting on the coach naked? Why did her text message only mention non-verbal ques if he also ignored verbal ones? Why mention something as petty as the wine if she felt sexually assaulted?
Aziz stopped when she was finally clear that she did not want to have sex. He ordered her a cab and he responded to her message with remorse that she had been uncomfortable with him. That doesn’t sound like a shitbag to me.
Ana was right, she needs to have agency over herself and take responsibility for her own actions. She is not some passive doll that needs her handler to treat her properly.
The most you can say about Aziz is that hopefully he learned to pay a bit more attention to what his partner is doing rather than losing yourself in the moment. But she should also have learned that if your partner is not picking up on your signals you need to make them more obvious. It should not have taken her anywhere near that long to say something.
And its important to mention we are only going by her side of the story. Her accounting of events may not be 100% true to what actually happened.
Not surprised at all that Cenk took on this perspective (I’ll never forget his endorsement of gross “locker room talk” for a prior story). Ansari’s behaviour that night demonstrated continued attempts to get this woman to change her mind. This is a very common way of abusing boundaries- just keep on trying until she relents, then the guy cant be labelled a shitbag because she ~technically~ didn’t say no. Im sick to death of hearing “men can’t read minds!!” lmao. Like he clearly chose to ignore her cues because he was hoping she would relent and just go along with stuff. Men aren’t vapid robots, yet socially we act like they are when it comes to interacting with women.
As for Ana- what a surprise! Not. Both these hosts demonstrate no understanding of the degree to which women are socialized to appease men, socially and sexually. Women are conditioned to “let stuff go” and to not advocate for ourselves. This means that even the “nicest” most well-meaning men benefits from this- trust me, men get laid often because women are just afraid they won’t be listened to if they say no anyway. We’ve all be sexually harassed, many many have been assaulted, whats the message? Our bodies aren’t ours. And that is how Aziz treated that woman that night. Why he kept sticking his fingers in her throat (dude are you trying to make her vomit? wtf????), why he mimicked intercourse, why he kept following her. What a fucking creep.
A “bad date” what a reductive statement. I commend this woman for coming out with her encounter. And its gross to see people commenting that obviously sex was on the table when she went up to his place- an ancient form of blaming the person who feels wronged.
I think this is the first time I’ve vehemently have disagreed with Cenk and Ana. They definitely did not mention the points at which Aziz clearly did not listen to her verbal statements and continued to try and initiate a sexual encounter. Another aspect I think that’s missed is just the power dynamic. Especially when you’re a pretty successful actor, you have to be more conscious of people. She clearly didn’t want a sexual encounter but she probably didn’t want to just leave Aziz either and make him angry at her.
Now, is Aziz as bad as Harvey Weinstein? Of course not but his behavior is still problematic. In fact, I think this is more relevant to the #metoo movement because it’s the type of behavior that leads predators to act more predatory. We need to call people out on their problematic behavior, not to punish them, but to teach them and other people.
Agreed! Here’s the point, and I don’t understand why that’s not clear. All of his defenders are saying “he can’t read minds”, “he didn’t get her non-verbal cues” etc. OK, so HOW IN THE WORLD has he gotten consent then? He went down on her, tried to move her hand on his dick, stuck his fingers down her throat[!] all without explicit, affirmative consent??? How in the world is that a “bad date”? Of course it’s assault?!
Did she ask him to do any of this? Clearly not! So how can he think he knows what she wants, if he’s unable to mind read or get non-verbal cues? And he didn’t stop either, after her moving away, after her changing the room etc. Sorry, but what an asshole…
Of course Ana is right on the “nuanced discussion”, she’s also right about people that want to tell other people that they’re abused, when they clearly don’t see it that way, but to tell someone else that something isn’t assault, because you wouldn’t feel violated in her place is just wrong, especially hence she explicitly says she felt violated. What about the “destroying his career” thing? If people share your POV they don’t have to fire or reprimand him in any way, if they do, then because they’re convinced it’s justified – in other words, they disagree with you…
Re: Aziz Ansari story
As Cenk of says: “Thanks, God.” I appreciated this coverage and BOTH of your informed viewpoints so much. I could not agree more. I made very similar ones online and have been attacked. The vitriol from fellow WOMEN has been amazing. The political smears have been concerning- why am I “obviously a fucking rape apologist Obama loving libtard” because I didn’t gang up on Aziz?
I have been on a “bad date” like that. Frankly, I would have appreciated it if the person had enough respect; got dressed and suggested we watch TV. I would NEVER have expected the person to “make me feel better by tussling my hair or rubbing my shoulders.” Unfortunately, I am also a member of #meToo. Which is why I feel it’s so important to have- as Anna identified- “a nuanced conversation.” Bad dates are meant for advice columns- not for reputation smears.
(Word of advice: I ALWAYS pay my meal or drinks on first date) aka: Aziz’s date could have ordered her own GLASS of red wine. She wasn’t helpless just because he ordered a BOTTLE of white wine. – that is just a matter of time, experience & maturity.
My son is 23 in 3-1/2 weeks. We’ve discussed the Babe.com story and the subsequent criticisms and continue to keep an open dialogue on the (incredible) difference in thinking. I feel it’s so important for him to have someone to talk to about this as he navigates his way through college and into more serious dating situations.
Just MO. Not intended to persuade or dissuade.
#teamaziz
#metoo
Holy fucking shit. This isn’t something to be on a “team” about Volta. Try actually contributing to the discussion instead of throwing in a hashtag that was designed to be controversial.
Listen, you were clearly triggered by my innocuous post. It appears as though it struck a nerve, and for that, I’m sorry.
Having said that, shut the fuck up. Criticising me for posting #teamaziz, and chastising me for not “contributing to the discussion” is fucking hilarious seeing how your little bitch statement is the only thing you contributed.
But if you insist…on to the heart of the matter – Aziz acted like a few guys I’ve been on dates with, it’s something you encounter. BFD. Other girls may be more affected, and possibly feel violated by this behavior…I don’t…but I fully understand feeling like you were not in control of a situation. However, feeling like you’re not in control, is not the same as being violated. As Ana and Cenk pointed out many times, when [anonymous] spoke out, Aziz stopped. Full stop. Her calling out Aziz is taking it too far. While I, for the most part, agree with Ashleigh Banfield, I still feel like there is something that can be learned from this, that can contribute to the #metoo movement. It should be a reminder to men that consent is so fkn important. From the moment you move towards them to give them a kiss, to the moment you have sex(men & women). But men(and women) are not mind readers for fuck sake. Parents/society can teach their sons to watch for any nonverbal cues know when to stop trying to get some, and to communicate with the other person so they have a better idea of where their head is at. Parents/society can teach their daughters to communicate as well. I believe if it wasn’t someone famous, [anonymous] would have moved on. Not because she wants any money, or to be famous herself, or to get revenge, but because it was a bad date with someone she perhaps expected to exhibit little more respect and class, and she can share her disappointment with the situation with the entire world.
There, was that contributing enough for you? Are you happy, bullfrog21? Fuck off
Wow hour 2 had better quality stories than hour 1. Sorry but I don’t care that Trump said a naughty word or farted in the elevator.
Hour 2 generally has better — and more — stories than hour 1, at least when Cenk is around. Having other people present seems to help reign in his worst impulses. By himself, Cenk could spend an hour ranting Trump’s tie.
I love Cenk though!
Those are my favorite shows!