Jimmy Dore, Stef Zamorano, & Dave Dayen on this week’s Aggressive Progressives. The trio talk about single-payer healthcare, Dave’s article in The Intercept, and Prop 98. Ron Placone joins and Michael Lighty, Director of Public Policy from the CNA, skypes in to talk about the healthcare bill.
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Please, let the other guests speak a little!!!!
Is there some reason the nurses didn’t propose one of the other versions that previously passed and were vetoed? There can be blame on both sides. If the nurses don’t want to be criticized, they could put together another bill, right? Blame for everyone in leadership here.
You’re treating nurses like some people treat cops: They Can Do No Wrong. Don’t think these are the nurses you see at the hospital. These are the legislative executives of a large corporation who failed to propose something satisfactory. Yes, the legislators are crap, but the nurses could have proposed something better too.
Oh god. Jimmy brought the 2 idiots from his shit youtube show to this. The transformation is almost complete.
Steps is the best. So nice to see her next to jimmy And not the peanut gallery.
“I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.”
(attributed to son of a prick, magnate jay gould)
as long as there are those in our ranks who would heave a shiv for a couple bucks, the dirty stinky soul-less-moneybag-laden whores (no offense to genuine sex-workers) in power will always have wood.
Dore 4 Senate 2018!?
?
Got to give it to Jimmyboy here. He left ranting and partisanship and went to the other side and brought David Dayen in to explain why progressives were also at fault in the California single payer problem and showed great interest and asked excellent questions as he is supposed to.
I hope he continues and get other people from the other side to come and listen because as I have always said, there are always shades of grey in your own camp and one must listen to all of them.
As a jibe, this doesn’t make any sense. James voted for the Greens but he’s not a member of that party nor affiliated with any other party as far as we know.
The only thing that brings people over to our side, is Progressive Populism. Jimmy is part of that and Dayen is part of that, just in different ways. In same way as Chris Hedges and Tulsi Gabbard are very different from one another but nevertheless part of the same thing (while also being very different from James and Dayen).
Partisanship doesn’t just mean team Dems and team Republicans, it means I will only hear what people on my side of a particular issue say and screw the rest even if they have truth on their side.
The California debate was grossly distorted by all sides but the most by the holier-than-thou Nurses union which in addition to being wrong was outright intellectually dishonest.
Finally, progressive populism without self-criticism and brains is dangerous. Latin America went for it in the 2000s and after a brief euphoria things collapsed like a house of cards and guess which part of the right wing won the latest elections in those countries after economic failure?
The extreme right. And unfortunately since things have already hit rock bottom and the only way is up, it will those extreme right wing parties that will win elections for the foreseeable future.
Most people who criticize progressives criticize it not because they oppose their values, they criticize it because the dangers of unplanned policies that have not been properly researched.
> Partisanship doesn’t just mean team Dems and team Republicans, it means I will only hear what people on my side of a particular issue say and screw the rest even if they have truth on their side.
So what is James’ side, then? What is my side? If you want to describe and denominate what we stand for as a kind of “party”, then it would be preferable if you spelled it out for everyone, so that it becomes clear to all what this discussion is really about, ideologically speaking.
> Finally, progressive populism without self-criticism and brains is dangerous.
No, I think remaining stuck in the status quo is much more dangerous, because the current configuration is unsustainable over the longterm, which will cause it to implode eventually. From that implosion, anything at all could emerge.
As you know perfectly well, all of Latin American politics has always been dangerous and unstable. Venezuela already had a long history of coup d’états, dictatorship and political corruption prior to Chavez. Chavez assuredly didn’t fix any of that, but at least he was trying to steer it all into a better direction. His worst mistake was to replace the already existing corruption with a different form of corruption, instead of making a break from it.
> The extreme right. And unfortunately since things have already hit rock bottom and the only way is up, it will those extreme right wing parties that will win elections for the foreseeable future.
In Europe, the extreme right’s opportunities are being created by the failures of the neoliberal project that is the European Union and the Euro currency (whose stewards are, assuredly, not leftwing populists). Like say, Golden Dawn in Greece, Le Pen in France, etc.
It goes without saying that the extreme right will attempt to seize its chances regardless of who is in charge during a period of intensifying crisis; any kind of crisis. In short, there is no special lesson about “the dangers of leftwing populism” here. Nor is there a lesson about the alleged virtues of the neoliberal status quo, nor one about the alleged virtues of more western-style democracies.
> they criticize it because the dangers of unplanned policies that have not been properly researched.
I think that’s a euphemism for “screw democracy, leave it all to the experts and the technocrats”. That’s all very convenient from your POV, because you fancy yourself to be one of the experts.
I could take the above and flip it around: why do most progressive policies remain (for now) unplanned and unexecuted? It’s not because they haven’t been independently researched (most of them are, and are found to be logistically and materially possible, in the same way that the New Deal was possible), it’s because of the purely ideological opposition to them, i.e. neoliberal dogmatic thinking or rightwing ideology.
I already explained what I mean with partisanship in my earlier post. Partisanship that I referred to is group think. Jimmy and his people only listen to their bubble and reject other arguments outright.
I can’t be more clearer than that.
Second point, getting stuck in the status quo is not a bad thing and is far better than experimenting for the sake of experimenting. The current status quo, real status quo, says the US remains despite everything the richest country in the world and despite all its problems, those problems seriously affect a mere 20% of the population. In other words, the US never had it better.
People’s lives are not experiments, not every “populist progressive” policy is a panacea for the particular issue it wants to resolve nor every conservative idea is a poison. That is why before applying such policies critical thinking, something progressives always criticize conservatives for lacking, must be applied in order for foresee future problems and put in place the mechanisms that will solve them.
That is why I used the South American model. Every single country, including Brazil, is now poorer than before the leftists came to power precisely because they applied policies without thinking. When the bad policies that everyone told them were bad and were going to destroy the economy later did become bad and their economies began a sharp decline guess who came to the “rescue” promising to destroy both the good policies that did not contribute to the current problems (which is most of the policies enacted by them) as well as the bad ones?
This is what I am afraid of. The left cheered the trade unions in the UK in the 70s and ended up with a 38 year rule of Tory and Toy-lite Labour and even Corbyn is no where near as left as Labour in the 70s.
Third point, the extreme right I meant is the traditional right which went even more to the right after Thatcher. The extreme right you mention is more commonly known as the far right the populist quasi-fascist right which is basically a mixed of left wing populism along with right wing fascism.
The far right is not successful in Europe, the barely win more than 10% and rarely have any say on policy and almost their entire focus,indeed the only policy they have, is on immigration and this was before muslim immigration became a thing.
And please stop it with “neo-liberalism”, there is no such thing. The reason EU countries are where they are today is because the “neo-liberal” EU project. The EU spent 3 trillion Euros to raise the standard of living of Central and Eastern European countries and their payback was to elect fascists t power like Orban (right winger) or Fico (left winger). The countries where quasi-fascism is ruling are not part of the Euro and continue to get more subsidies from the EU than give (kind of like the Red States). The EU project made life for Europeans better, easier and more comfortable. The problem with the European project was it was too liberal accepting countries like Greece and Portugal which should not have came within a country mile close to joining the EU without serious reforms. *
Finally, what exactly do you mean by “screw democracy”? Because here is the thing, democracy everywhere is limited by the constitution.
What I was mentioning above was policy proposals not actual implemented policies (and even criticizing actual policies is not illegal and campaigning against them is not undemocratic) and last time I checked no one ran on any of those policies we are discussing not even single payer. The supporters of single payer in California have every right and power to bypass the legislature altogether and pass a ballot proposition that overrides everything yet they will never do it because they know it will not pass and will prefer to blame someone else.
Finally what is the problem with asking experts, real experts not paid-to-lie experts, to issue judgement on policies (or even craft them) before implementing them? Experts and technocrats are there for a reason and remember, without them we would literally be without a civilization. The cuneiforms telling us who owes what to whom and which canal sluice door broke for the money to fix it were not written by elected officials, those were at the forum debating how much money to spend on the altar of Venus because religion (aka temples with money) gets you elected not bread and butter issues.
And not everything was studied carefully nor the people doing the studies are innocent actors. The guy who advised Bernie while he had some great ideas also had some flawed macro-economic models that even a beginner won’t make. When others looked at his work and pointed those errors (while praising most of the policies) people went berserk.
It is always good to have a second opinion, again, from people not paid to lie.
> “because you fancy yourself to be one of the experts.”
And, to be clear, you are better informed than anyone here. I didn’t mean that as a personal slight, I meant it purely as a commentary on how the current Class of Experts (the ones that are currently in charge, or at least associated with the experts in charge) think, behave, and operate.
I only fancy myself an expert on energy policy since I work in the energy sector. Other areas I read and use what I studied in college in addition to referring to real experts who are not partisan and most importantly have a track record of doing the most difficult thing in academia, saying that they were wrong.
And it’s true, of course, that Jimmy doesn’t always do as much research as he should be doing. But research is not his core job. His core job is to be a populist activist/agitator, just like I am a populist activist/agitator (albeit one operating at a much lower level). The level of education is not particularly relevant to this job (so it doesn’t matter that I have one degree more than Jimmy does).
The current single payer bill is total bullshit. My health care premium is $326 a month. Under their current 15% income plan my premium would double or triple per month, depending as a self-employed person how much comes in for the year. I fail to see how having to spend nearly $650 to $1000 more a month in health care insurance is helpful to me on top of the insane cost of living in Los Angeles and $1,100 a month in student loans. Now some will say, then don’t live in California. I say, then don’t breed.
I have no problem having a portion of my taxes go to Medi-Cal for people in need or even single parents struggling, but people that makes a decent salary that chose to have multiple kids or households that can afford to have one spouse at home, I have a big problem being screwed over to pay for their kids’ health care so they can save money on their premiums. I beleive in a single-payer system, but I believe it should include a flat add-on amount per child or at home spouse so that it is more fair for people without kids.
This is the only show worth watching on TYT.
I agree totally.
I’ve been thinking about this for a while…so many members regularly come on here to express their support and their loyalty to this show, and it’s obvious what the logical next step is, namely: how about we start an actual advocacy group for the Aggressive Progressives?
Meaning, a large group of TYT members who express their support for this show, but who do this in a more organized manner than simply random shout-outs on this one message board. Ideally this should involve things like a signup sheet, a Twitter hashtag, an additional message board, and all the other available tools of online support.
As an additional message board, I suggest The Jimmy Dore subreddit, which is right here: https://www.reddit.com/r/jimmydore/ Anyone can post there, just need to sign up for a free Reddit account, which takes only seconds.
Let’s call the group “The Aggressive Advocates” or something like that.
I will be posting this to the next AP thread, too, so we can talk it over and see what we can do.
Major thanks for this! I was ?????? about the Intercept article, and started building
a case against TI — thinking they rolled over. ( I’m still ??? about Reality Winner)
My takeaway is Dayen is a Progressive, yes.
Clearly not an AGGRESSIVE Progressive.
That’s ok. We surely need to work together.
The Prop 98 excuse … is this a red herring to pit the Teachers Union AGAINST the Nurses Union?
Nurses want single-payer and they want to de-fund education to pay for it!
That’s what I felt like this Dave’s take is …
ONCE AGAIN … the reason we (as a state or a nation) can’t have Nice Things (healthcare or education)
is those corrupt Nurses and greedy Teachers.
ONCE AGAIN … it is the UNIONS fault, NOT the legislators!!!
The more I think about it, the more pissed off I am at Dave’s take on this.
Congrats to Jimmy for keeping his cool.
But at the end he came just short of saying, ” I wanna be fair to Dave, don’t want him not to come on again.” Instead he said, “to not debate him while he’s not here.”
I don’t buy that Dave is really for Single-Payer. Seems he agrees with it In Theory.
How does he suggest we fight for it? By waiting for legislators to get the okay from the Insurance Industry?
It is not an excuse, it is a serious legal problem and there is no way around it. Judges in California are elected if you haven’t noticed and no judge will rule against education especially in conservative California which passed prop 98 in the first place.
If we were to assume Medical will administer single payer that means years of setting up the adequate infrastructure (employees, HQs, payment systems etc.) and this in turn means years of annual suspension of Prop 98 and as David said, it takes a judge to screw the entire thing 2 or 3 years in which is equivalent to shooting oneself in the temporal lobe because taxes will double within a single day and because of single payer taxes would already be more than double.
Not to mention that California Dems are 2 seats away from losing their supermajority to uber conservative republicans in mixed districts and republicans have a real shot in 8-10 seats.
And it is not the union’s fault but they have to put their money where their mouth is. By denying the legal catastrophe behind this, which even their most ardent supporters agree on, they are basically kicking the can to somebody else. The legislature can propose overturning Prop 98 but this is political suicide and guess who won’t come to the rescue? The same unions asking for Single Payer.
love this show.
lets get Graham back in here too!
Steve Oh is amazing. If you dont like him, just stick to The Jimmy Dore Show & stop your TYY sub.
Best episode of the week. This is why I subscribe. Jimmy Dore (without Steve-Oh-Shit-I-Have-No-Business-Being-On-This-Show) and Mondays when Cenk anchors solo. Rest is all shit.
Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes!
MOST BORING AS HELL AP EPISODE I’VE EVER SEEN. THIS WAS AS BAD AS WATCHING MICHAEL SHURE.
“People shouldn’t be afraid of their government. Government should be afraid of their people.” (V for Vendetta)
We must take back our power.
Jimmy you have done a great job in dealing with the issue at hand. I have only watched up to 43rd minute were David is giving his argument, and your desire to find truth in the dispute is brilliant!………………. I’m now waiting to hear Michael Lightly’s reply to David’s specific concerns re the shelved Bill.
Seems to me that Michael was able to answer David. I liked Jimmy’s summation at the end ….”I liked what David was saying today, not so much what he wrote in his article”. Keep shining a light on the issues Jimmy.
Totally agree, Lighty had really weak arguments and we have to take him at his word. David definitely seems to have the best knowledge of the law
This show had a great topic and guests. But, I do not like how light you guys were on Lighty. He did not address any of the points that David brought up. Lighty said SB 90 would not affect their bill at all because they could just refer to that review board, but that means David was right it could be depending on those people according to the written law. Lighty didn’t even address the people David referenced, he just blanket said “No, it won’t affect it”. Also, to the point where David said the current proposition was missing details compared to the 1992 legislation, Lighty basically said “well, the lawmakers now will take care of it”, but if the previous legislation answered those questions on the spot, why could their bill?
Exactly.
It’s one thing to be progressive but we gotta be smart and precise and nail this #### down so that the rentseekers can’t just easily shoot these efforts down.
Like a precision-guided ordinance, we gotta be on target otherwise we end up damaging our efforts…Dave Dayen was spot on…yeah he mighta been a bit tough on the nurses but hey, having your heart in the right place is not good enough these days…..the conservative neoliberal sellouts just LOVE half-assed attempts to effect change.
Let’s make it waaaaay harder for them and get our collective aggressive progressive sh#t together.
I love and appreciate the work that Jimmy Doore does on ap. However, he shows he isn’t an expert on the issue, and seemed unprepared for the interviews. Why couldn’t we get both guests to debate each other? I think that would have been much more productive. I’m desperate, like so many others are, for substantive well thought out debate on this topic. There is too much emotion and not enough practical discussion. I was left with more questions than answers. Please please please continue the fight, but remember that sometimes letting the experts fight it out, and asking followup clarifying questions, will sometimes be more informative than acting as an intermediate between the two.
YAY RON!
Thanks for bringing Dave Dayen on your show Jimmy. His article confused me and this discussion was needed.
Thank you this was an excellent show! Finally someone that has talked about SB562.
A great fucking episode, Jimmy. The 90-minute show was a great upgrade to AP. I always felt like it was too short and it still feels too short! Two 90-minute shows a week?! Let’s do this!
Going into this episode and seeing Steph and Ron, I was worried that this would just be a review of this weeks JDS episodes.
But I was very very wrong.
God damn slam dunk, Jimmy. Thank you.
Very interesting show. I agree with Dave in that the health care industry will be throwing billions to make sure the 7th largest economy in the world doesn’t throw them to the curb. They have a large stake to make sure California never sees single payer and they will be tightening the leashes on all those politicians in the Assembly and Senate and Gov Brown, all bought politicians to make sure this goes down to defeat. Using all the canned responses about how this will raise taxes on everyone and be totally unmanageable. So best to already have the grassroots in place and money to fight the industry or otherwise this will go down to defeat in the ballot box – because if CA does pass and implement single payer, it is the beginning of the death nell for the insurance industry and the reigning in of the pharma, nursing homes, medical equipment and other high profiting health insurance industries that are raking in unbelievable profits off of people getting sick and dying.
Also, great show Jimmy! This was the most productive discussion on health care I’ve seen in media. You cannot find this transparent discussion on the cable or network news programs. They are all full of Corporate perspective and health industry shit.
Great fucking show, Jimmy! That’s how you do real, honest, transparent progressive discourse. What Dayen wrote is deep and detailed. I live in California (I have most of my life) and am familiar with the political history of the other bills. Healthcare for All in California is another one of those bona fide complicated bills that requires a lot of careful thought and more importantly, coalition building so that THIS TIME, the bill we got is bulletproof and can pass.
Thanks for having the fucking balls to lay all the cards on the table on this shit. This is going to be a hard fight but having shows like this will bring all the players out and talk about healthcare for all to see whether they like it or not. Keep up the good work, bro.
Since I am told they read these I think it is time for members to demand 2 shows a week, they do not even need to be live. If AP is your biggest show why not double the output. I also find the staff is too quick to wanna wrap it up. if we have an 1 1/2 show and skype/internet connections make us lose 1/2 hour that is not cool.
Also, I am still very upset that they canceled the show, with zero notice.
Please let TYT know we need more AP!
Steve O has already said this in passing once
Use a Cellphone and photo next time that happens video not as important as audio
Excellent point.
Why don’t you show Stef’s legs under the table like on CNN?
I enjoyed Dayen’s book on the foreclosure crisis very much. I disagree with him here. He seems to be asking for all the details to be ironed out before we agree to any single-payer system. That’s unrealistic.
So everything this guy says reinforces that the system is rigged against the will of the people!
Awesome show team! I only wish this was public so more people could be exposed to the raw truth.
My thoughts exactly. A thorough interview.
You guys really got down to the nitty gritty of the fight for single payer in California. Just pure substance. This is probably the best episode yet. Special thanks for getting David Dayen to elaborate on his Intercept article. This is why I love Jimmy and the crew.
Awesome show, I love AP! Best show on TYT
Great show! Very informative. I’m glad Jimmy got the first guy on because when I read the article I thought jimmy should interview him which he did. EXCELLENT!
Great show!
Please use Debra Geboy for users name instead of phone number thank you
You have to go into your profile and change your “Display name publicly as”
You have to change it.
Are you fucking kidding me!!!!!
They cover more people but……
What the fuck?!?
They cover more people but….
He sees peopke without healthcare as exceptable?!?
The second part just was not true. If you have a serious problem there are many places with just as good if not better healthcare and physicians.
They cover all their people… yeah everyone has coverage, so what…
Aughhhhhhh!!!!!!!!
“Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth.”
-Lucy Parsons, Lucy Parsons: Freedom, Equality & Solidarity – Writings & Speeches, 1878-1937
Totally Agree!!!
I was listening to Dave talk and kept saying, “Why do other industrialized countries have some form of socialized medicine, but the fucking U S of A cant figure it out?”
We can go to the moon, but we can’t have healthcare for all.
We can have a War of Terror and a War on Drugs, but we cant have affordable college.
ARRRGGGGHHHH!!!!
The best Aggressive Progressive show yet! This is real investigative journalism at its finest. Loved the format! Keep it up!
part of me wishes someone would just do a pirate broadcast of this show over every tv station in america. this stuff is so important and everyone needs to hear it.
Dave Dayen,
Completely is fully correct on all of this.
I could not understand how a legislature could or would submit a State Prop without full details on something as important as universal state health care. The guy is spot on and very easy to understand on all points.
Get the public behind it more to finance the “experts to force the legislatures hand. They won’t do it while they are funded by the corporations that want it dead. Nor should we want them to do it. they will compromise and do it wrong and make it sure to not pass. Even if perfected it will have the most significant financial lobby ever on record because it is big industry in a big state that could pull this off. And if we do and do it well it will turn the nation to follow.
CNA… keep doing the hard work.
Everyone else… vote out these corporate democrats with lobby free progressives.
Terrific guests. Steve is probably traveling again but why is Malcolm absent? Is it just because having four people around the table gets too crowded? (I can see how it would be).
Dave Dayen,
Completely is fully correct on all of this.
I could not understand how a legislature could or would submit a State Prop without any details for something as important as universal health care. The guy is spot on and very easy to understand.
Idebruin you r AWESOMELY EPIC!!!!!!!!!! Now i can FINALLY satiate my Ferocious AP hunger n end my inconsolably devastating AP withdrawals. You sir/ma’am r my SAVIOR.