Post Game: May 30, 2017

In Post Game - On Demand by Gigi Manukyan63 Comments

Ana addresses Elizabeth Warren criticizers. Cenk talks about the things Warren is doing really wrong. The conversations shifts to politicians and “purity tests.”

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  1. Listen, I love Elizabeth Warren when it comes to a lot of her policies, but she has done/said some things that I really dislike. For instance, I’m a citizen of the Cherokee Nation, and it really bothers me (and for that matter LOT of Cherokee and Native American people in general) that she lies about being part Cherokee.
    There is no solid evidence that her false claims have helped her career-wise, but it still bothers me that she would be dishonest about it.
    She claims that her mother was part Cherokee and Delaware. She has no proof or documentation other than “family stories” and the unsubstantiated findings of some report that states she might be 1/32 Cherokee (which is not enough to give you Tribal citizenship status anyway, even if you did have solid proof).
    If she really was Native American, Cherokee especially, she would 100% have proof. During the removal (Trail of Tears), both the feds and the tribe kept multiple rolls and records. They kept track of us, since the federal government wanted us all to either stay in the barren plains of Oklahoma Territory or die. It would be as simple as looking at census information to find an actual relative, and matching that name with removal records.
    I can go on Cherokee Nation’s website and look up my ancestor and see his name on the removal roll.
    Even if she genuinely believes her mother, which I wouldn’t blame her for, if she has no proof she needs to let it go.

    Again, I love Warren’s policies (for the most part), but that dishonesty, whether intended or not, makes me distrust her.

    There are some people in politics who, like her, claim to be Native American without actual proof. The difference is that they want to change laws to allow people with no real proof to become tribal citizens, so they can have benefits that the real Native American population actually needs. We have enough problems as it is without non Native people trying to steal what help we do get.

    Sorry for the rant, I just feel like it is an important element to consider when having a discussion about her.

    Here’s a link to an article The Atlantic did regarding the issue:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/is-elizabeth-warren-native-american-or-what/257415/

  2. You guys should really consider uploading the part of you talking about Elizabeth Warren to Youtube!
    Its really important what you’re saying about Warren here.

  3. “The time is always right to do what is right” and she didnt do the right thing by not endorsing Bernie

    Also being wrong on Syria and Palestine/Israel is not anything small

    Finally, she endorsed Hillary before the DC Primary.! I live in DC! Imagine Senator Warren endorsing Hillary before the California primary!

    1. She is in total agreement with Bernie on both issues whether you like it or not.

      On Israel, there are no progressives and regressives, republicans or democrats, there are only what AIPAC wants them to say and they will sing like beautiful birds.

      1. I believe that Bernie has a better stance on Israel/Palestine than Elizabeth Warren and yet I have criticized him on that and Syria.

        Ana and Cenk just moved on with it as if it was no big deal and thats what I have an issue with. They shouldve asked Bernie about it in the Primary and Elizabeth Warren in that interview. Hopefully Cenk does so in the future.

  4. i’d vote for her in a heartbeat and tell everyone i know to vote for her (i also voted for hillary) but calm down. it’s not one policy or political calculation for warren.

    she may be the second most progressive senator we have in the u.s. but her complete political profile is of a centrist (to the left of obama) whose foreign policy policy is atrocious (which isnt really an individual shot at her, no national politician has a foreign policy in the u.s. worth a shit).

  5. Thank “god” I discovered you guys in 2015! Opened my eyes wide open. You guys are the best!! much love

  6. What Cenk is saying about having the courage to oppose the Establishment, is the crux of the issue here, to me. In fact, I couldn’t care less if the candidate calls themselves Progressive or Libertarian or even some label we never heard of. If they can be convincing during a primary, that they are willing to risk their future career, and piss off a lot of allies in order to do the right thing according to their own conscience (not mine), then I’m with them. If they make it clear that they can’t be bought by special interests, then they are rare enough to look at, with an open mind.

    But you can’t just SAY you’re going to support a Single Payer system and reasonable prices for medicine, regardless of what big Pharma wants. You have to convince your would-be supporters, and I don’t know the formula for that. No doubt that’s what the DNC were trying to learn, when they asked Sanders for his email list.

  7. I largely agree with both Ana and Cenk and I largely agree with Cenk’s sentiment at the end “if Elizabeth Warren does the right thing I’ll support her and if she doesn’t I won’t”

    But I think Ana oversimplifies the argument to “people are mad only because she didn’t endorse Bernie during the primary.”

    The reality, in my view, is that Elizabeth Warren is a little more comfortable towing the party line than I am comfortable with her being.

    Cenk is absolutely right to list all of her accomplishments. They are excellent. Now let me list her faults.

    -she doesn’t see Joe Manchin as a problem.

    -her response to the Ben Carson question felt disingenuous to me.
    (I fully believe the conversation she spoke of happened, but I think she voted him down in the end due to public outcry against her initial vote.)

    -she never brought up single payer

    -she sees Russia as a major issue to be brought up in the 2018 primaries

    -she did not speak out in support of Standing Rock as it was happening when her voice would have mattered.

    1. Very well said. I came here to address the same issue with Ana massively oversimplifying the issue with Warren, but fortunately JoeRo already did.

      Ana says we should support Warren because she listens to her constituents…. thats not abundantly clear lately.

    2. I think she’s well aware of her status as token liberal for the Democrats. So they can point and say, “look, we have one of those !” I was watching the DeVos hearings and it just hit me, this is almost scripted. The committee could have stopped her. I think it was Sue Collins and Murkowski from AK who came up with the genius plan of passing her through the hearing and then voting against her in the general session, thereby allowing her confirmation but washing their hands of it at the same time.

      It just felt too perfect, every Dem got their soundbyte, got their youtube clip to add to the resistance. Collins and Murkowski got to make sure her nomination was approved and still answer to their constituents that they voted against her on the second round. All the people who had recieved big donations from DeVos got to vote for her at least once. Everybody knew what was going to happen, everybody won politically and our teachers got an insult when they deserve so much more, our kids got robbed. IDK what’s fair to expect from Warren in a spot like that, but I feel as if she’s a bit too willing of an accomplice to the game. Her impassioned speeches almost seem MORE poignant when it doesn’t matter than when it does. That really bothers me.

    3. Completely agree. While Liz is great in some arenas, she tows party loyalty lines–i cannot imagine her openly criticizing her greedy dem colleagues– in too many ways for my comfort. I sincerely hope she will NOT run for President, I honestly don’t think she will take us where we need to go. She is great as a Senator, maybe make a good VP, but President??? I think it sad that she is considered the second most progressive Senator? What about Jeff Merkley of Oregon? He came out for Bernie, and I feel he is way ahead of Liz on climate, on wages and single payer…. sadly, I think all are suckers when it comes to militarism, including Bernie. We just cannot seem to imagine ourselves without a massive, criminal military system. Nobody seems to question them, ever.

  9. The Wells Fargo guy resigned in shame with a massive million dollars packages.

    Listen. I’m savage toward to establishment Democrats traitors. Yet, even I, if Warren honestly admitted her mistake about the primary, I would forgive her instantly. However she choosed to avoid the question and bullshitted us. So I don’t trust her.

    Yes she is better than the regular garbage, but just because that’s such a low bar and if it came don’t to it I might possibly vote for her in an election but I really don’t want us to have to makes that choice.

  10. Being from a country that doesn’t have a 2 party system, it always amazes me how black and white people see things in American politics, including progressives. I suppose that’s what you get when your entire system is set up to vote between good or bad, right or wrong.

  11. Jimmy says that it’s OK to punch up — never down. So don’t worry about trolls flaming you: they’re simply punching up!

  12. What I found so disappointing about the Elizabeth Warren interview is just how much she has drank the Russia Kool-Aid. When Cenk asked about what policies the Democrats should focus on and her first answer was Russia. Just goes to show you the bubbles we live in. I do hope she continues fighting for working class people and starts making better political calculations. Only time will tell.

  13. Ok, first of all, I’m happy that you got to spend time with one of your idols, idol. You deserve more such encounters, and hopefully your job or fame will give you that.

    But second, this isn’t about a binary “Warren didn’t do this one thing for us, therefore we can paint her as a poopy-head”. This is about some SPECIFIC important things she didn’t do, the clear signs that she is not of the same caliber as Bernie.

    Supporting Clinton is understandable, because there is a degree of intimidation behind the scenes, that even Bernie succumbed to. Anybody would. But there is no excuse for remaining silent about DAPL, until Obama denied the permits. And there is also her war positions, her stances on Israel. I’m sorry, but this woman is not presidential material; not the kind of president we want.

    Now, because of her consistent criticism of Wall Street, she could certainly be useful somewhere in the White House. But she doesn’t win my admiration, not the level of admiration I would have for incorruptible figures like Sanders, Ron Paul, and Ralph Nader. Maybe we’ll have a solid female candidate at some point, but Warren isn’t that person.

    (I’m at 3 minutes into this podcast, right after Ana’s comment. Will listen to the rest later)

    1. Couldn’t agree more. I don’t just _hate_ Elizabeth Warren, like Cenk and Ana point out, she supports and has fought for a lot of good during her tenure. But she’s no radical, there’s no excuse for any position on Israel short of “they are human rights violators that must cease”, and Bernie is guilty of that too. Just like you shouldn’t have to hate her for her shortcomings, you don’t need to worship her despite them.

  14. Ana, yes the world is unfair, but moral standards apply to us all. Elizabeth Warren betrayed those American people who had been hurt by Wall Street. She is a human, but she is also a hypocrite. She betrayed her values and beliefs. This is the sole reason why she will lose the 2020 election, if she decides to run.

  15. I live near Bath! GUTTED I would have made the trip down if I knew you were there!

    Any chance next time TYT are in the UK you can hold an event that we can attend? Would love to meet some of you.

    P.s. Great PG

  16. Let’s not forget how Warren didn’t say anything about the people being brutalized in North Dakota until after the easement was granted.

    And I think that judging any politician based upon comparison to other American politicians is a pretty fucking low bar to set.

    That being said, of course I would come out to vote for her if she were running. I’m not an asshole.

    Crazy how people get so pissed when you’re to the left of them, though; even you guys start w/ the smears, implying that anyone who doesn’t give Warren a pass is a child. Her constant fumbling is costing some us dearly, even if she does mean well and has made good plays in the past.

    1. I think you completely missed the point of what Ana was saying. She never said “anyone who doesn’t give warren a pass is a child”. She said anyone who dismisses Warren based on a SINGLE issue is a child. And they are. Adults understand that even the best politicians make mistakes and are not perfect. Expecting a politician to be 100% perfect before you vote for them is childish.

  17. As far as holding Warren or Sanders to too high a standard and trolling: I (rarely ever @ ppl; but I) don’t see much point in appealing to Kissinger’ or Cheney’s better angels. Yes, Liz and Bern are far better than most. But that doesn’t give them a pass to not be at least chided when they’re doing wrong. Some people are single issue. It comes with the territory. I ghosted Lawrence O’Donnell for years – among numerous others – over the Obama white papers on killing and codifying mass surveillance

    1. Come on man, not chided? Cenk hit almost every low light for Warren. When has TYT EVER really done that. Christ, they criticized Bernie, Cenk criticized Rho and he’s the Justice Dems poster boy.

      1. Yea, I think Cenk hit the nail on the head with why people are so disappointed with Warren. Ana really was straw-manning in pretending that people’s only issue with Warren was her not endorsing Bernie, even after Cenk broke down all her other shortcomings. It’s one thing for Ana to say she still supports Warren despite her faults, it’s another to pretend she can’t understand why others wouldn’t.

  18. Cenk [to audience]: “You guys wouldn’t know the first two speakers because they’re British”

    You do realise that there are thousands of British members and listeners! I’m one. I sometimes wonder if even you guys realise how international your audience is!

  19. Cenk is being reckless tying to take out Manchin. I have property in WV, no progressive can win that seat and Manchin as bad as he is will keep his seat. He votes with democrats over 70 % of the time and if he goes, his replacement will vote with Trump 100% of the time.
    Run progressives in states that they can win.

    2. Thank you. I don’t see how literally any Democrat other than Manchin (with his local connections/recognition) could possibly win that seat in a state that went +40 for Trump 2 years prior when polling indicates most of his supporters are still with him. Primary away, but I think it’s a waste of JD resources at best and could hypothetically cost us the Senate at worst.

    3. You are expressing the traditional, corporate Democratic point of view. I can accept that, it is an opinion. But I would ask that you look at how extraordinarily well Bernie did in WV. And I would remind you of the following:

      West Virginia only voted for a Republican presidential candidate twice from 1960 to 2000 (it went red in 1972 and 1984, elections where the Republican candidate carried 49 out of 50 states).

      The state has also voted for a Democratic Senator every year since 1960, and consistently elected Democratic House members until 2010.

      The DLC and the corporate Democrats gave up on WV as they gave up on so many blue-collar areas. That gave Republicans a chance to turn the state red. BUT IT SHOULD BE BLUE. There are very precious few places in the country that have benefitted from Democratic-backed programs and policies.

      The problem, of course, is that those policies all pre-date the 90’s. Since the great DLC hijacking, WV has been ignored by the DNC. If the Democrats actually start representing working class people again, they can take WV back. Bernie has shown us how.

  20. Cenk and Anna
    you guys should know that there is a lot more support for you in Europe than you realise, there is nothing else like you in the media. People, not just young people want real progressive change, we’re sick of corrupt career politicians.
    Anyway, much love from France.

    1. I’d flip that ticket, but I think she’s enough of a legitimate Dem that I wouldn’t not vote if she were to be the primary “guy”.

  22. Neo Liberalism grew in the fertile soil of voters forgiveness for large mistakes and loyalty to party.

  23. It’s kind of amazing that Ana thinks the worst thing about Warren is her not endorsing Bernie. Any progressive with sense knows that the problem with her is her backwards position on Israel and Palestine.

  24. Quite frankly, the interview was disappointing – lots of dodges, not many indications of political lessons learnt from the last 6 months. I am neither in the “Russia is an apocalypse” or the “Russia is a false alarm” camp, but it’s safe to say it should not be the first thing on your roster as a Democrat.
    Warren is technically as solid as they come, and yes, we need those kinds of legislators. But I do not believe she is a servant leader or a capable mass politician, so look for that guy/ lady elsewhere. Once you find your servant leader, she can put her experience and expertise to give good economic results,

  26. Cenk has mentioned before he thinks trolls are just 15 year old goofing around. I’m sure that exists, but what also exists is all sorts of politically motivated individuals and hired trolls with plain and sometimes hidden agendas.

    You can get a sense of it if you bother to start clicking on accounts of people who do it, but you can also realize the truth of it if you simply contemplate the resources our own country puts into CIA, NSA, etc… and the great expense they’ve put into controlling and influencing governments around the world.

    Now ask yourself, if we spend billions of dollars and have people risking life and limb, under cover spies and such to promote our agenda, if we do that. Why on earth wouldn’t Russia, China, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, etc… put a few goons on a PC to throw shade at populist movements ? To generally encourage hate and discontent ? Why wouldn’t antifa do that, why wouldn’t any zealot who believes so strongly in a cause they are willing to justify a means to an end ? Maybe this can offer some explanation as to why Cenk and Ana are made to feel hated online, but find people in the real world to be warm and welcoming.

    1. You have a sense of what’s going on, Danny. As far as how to cure this plague of Deliberate Disinformation and Disparaging remarks – no idea.

  27. Jeezus, you ask her what Democrats should focus on and the first thing out her mouth is Russia. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you President Donald Trump until 2024 (if we’re lucky and they don’t re-write the Constitution when the Republicans win a super-majority in 2018). Just for context, the DNC posted their worst fund raising numbers since 2009. The RNC has almost $50 million cash on hand. The DNC? They have less than 8 million. The DNC is finished. If a new party isn’t started, the republic will end in 2018.

  28. I have mixed feelings about Warren hate. The first mistake she made wasn’t not endorsing Bernie, it was not running for President. She would be our President right now if she had run. She was one of several who was much more electable than Hillary who was pushed out to make way for our dear, entitled, fund-raising loser queen.

    In my opinion if our government worked as it should, career politicians would be rare. It shouldn’t be a matter of how much can we tolerate. The default should be NOT getting re-elected IMO. Don’t like a decision made, no problem, new rep in.

  29. Just wanted to say you both make it possible for me to dare to hope. The trolls are a running gag in the youtube comments. All their screaming just shows you’re doing something right.

  30. I wonder how many TYT trolls have recognized you two in person and been fanboys to your faces. Have you had a lot of negative reactions in person?

  31. Love for Warren and frustrations with her aside I’m really glad TYT got to interview her onset. This signals progress in many ways.

    She is naive in her belief that just leading by example will be enough. And that infighting would hurt progress. She bought into that narrative hook line and sinker. I hope she comes around but in the meantime she is still doing a lot of good and fighting outside the party hard for us. That is good but the party must be fixed. It’ll never fix itself and will stab her in the back as it has in the past and will again as soon as it is convenient.

  32. Completely correct about the ‘black and white’ thinking. It’s simplistic, unrealistic, and lacks nuance which we need as much as anything in this country. Warren is a human being. There are tons of D.C. idiots around her pushing hard for her to take bad positions. Everyone screws up and political calculus at the national level is daunting to say the least.

    I sincerely believe she is a good person who wants to do right by the American people. It’s our responsibility to make it clear to her and others that making the right choices isn’t going to have dire consequences like she is probably being told by the aforementioned D.C. idiots.

    It’s the politician’s responsibility to earn our votes. It’s our responsibility to push the politicians where they need to go.

  33. Cenk, I looked it up for you. At the end of the Post Game you were trying to quote a line from the African-American Spiritual, “There Is a Balm in Gilead”. The line you were looking for is: There is a balm in Gilead to heal the sin sick soul.

  34. I don’t think anybody’s saying Elizabeth is totally wrong, but her not endorsing Bernie in Massachusetts was an exposure of her character, and that left me cold. I’d still vote for her over any corporate Democrat.

  35. I find it super sad that the hosts of the two camps at TYT are throwing shade at each other in a safe setting (i.e. when they are having conversations with other hosts of their own camp), but seemingly are incapable of having an open public debate between each other on the topics of contention on air.

    Of course, since I am firmly on the “The Russia story is pure hysteria” side of things, I’d like to think that it is because Cenk knows that he cannot win against reasoned arguments, since the whole thing rests on conjecture, insinuation and blindly trusting anonymous sources who are leaking to the mainstream press. Then again, Jimmy tends to start ranting when he is trying to make a point and not follow up with the best, hard-hitting arguments, instead favoring making strong statements.

    A few weeks ago Michael Tracy basically took Cenk to the woodshed and beat him bloody when he (and Jordan) were allowed to actually challenge all the assumptions Cenk makes constantly. More of that, please.

    1. +1
      it would be cool to inject some flavor from the TYT politics folks when we get to these discussions, so we can stay aware that there are some pretty serious problems with the DNC.

    2. Cenk’s hardly a guy to shy away from an argument, agree or disagree with him personally… Would love to see this vid of Cenk getting “taken to the woodshed” on the Russia issue, because I seriously doubt Jordan and Tracy (like everyone else who’s stuck their fingers in their ears permanently vis a vis Russia) did anything of the sort. Especially if it was more recent because the evidence piles up every single day that goes by.

        1. Damn, got the time-code in there when I last stopped watching the video. Just rewind it to the beginning. Sorry, I just got out of bed.

  36. I agree with Ana. I also watched that interview. That being said there were about 3 moments that have left me super concerned.

    1. If you replace “chest looks” with “looks stunning” or “looks gorgeous” Ana might like your comment :P :)

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