Cenk & Ana. TYT report on the FB Live rape. Ferguson protester in iconic photo found dead. New TX law allows adoption agencies to discriminate. Steve Harvey memo. Bow Wow challenge.
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Comments
Ana needs to polish her reading because listening only to her read grafics is becoming seriously annoying. Sometimes I even lose the thought / facts she is reading, without reading them myself simultaneoulsly. Super annoying, happening on every story nowadays
Where have you been this whole time? Ana can barely read a sentence without messing up, she frequently mispronounces common words, and she admitted she doesn’t know who Pol Pot is.
Ferguson protester deaths sound a lot like execution by cop as revenge for local changes that may have been made because of the shooting of Michael Brown.
Ana- what Cenk is talking about is playing hard to get. It’s very common. Women have an ‘image’ to maintain of not being easy. That’s just the way it is. That’s not a defence of defying a womans will. It just creates ambiguity.
Adoption often requires the approval of the biological parents on final placement. You cannot hijack the parent’s wishes no matter how agnostic you are.
But where the foster child is a ward of the state, yes I agree with the hosts.
Holy fuck Ana, calm the fuck down. Cenk is 100% right about society’s expectations about women’s approach to sex. I feel that pressure everyday and yes, I am in YOUR generation, I’m 24 years old.
This rant about women sleeping around and evolution is literally one of the most misunderstood and deeply incorrect set of statements I’ve ever read.
We know, you never got laid by the hot girl. Go back to your MRA forum and live your sad little life.
this liberal BS re encouraging women to sleep around and become more slutty is just stupid. men are designed by evolution to find women with a lower notch count more attractive. this will never change until evolution changes it, and it appears evolution will not change it since the same forces and dynamics apply. women who sleep around have a higher likelihood of sleeping around while married & this increases the likelihood that you will be raising some other dudes child without even knowing it.
Currently, 10% of men are raising another mans child without even realizing it. if each family has 2.1 children, this means 1 in every 21 children are raising another mans child without realizing it.
meaning, if men were to adopt this “women should sleep around” strategy, after 21 generations or so these types of men’s genetics will be wiped off the face of the friggen earth, meaning… we are back to where we started. have fun!
Where’d you pull that 10% statistic from, your fedora?
the 10% fathering another mans child is the average of all studies, which you use with average birth rates to figure out what % of children it affects.
http://disinfo.com/2011/02/one-out-of-ten-people-werent-fathered-by-the-man-they-believe-is-dad/
Cenk hit a very good point on the rape case. If a girl says no at any point you definitely stop. However, sometimes people like to wordplay, roleplay, be teased, and so forth. Girls are subconsciously trained to play hard to get. Society has a double standard with women and sex and so girls dont want to be slut shamed. To cenk’s point, just be clear. if you want to have sex then say it, if not then dont. Now, most people are never this clear and sex isnt about sex its an emotional build up, so the consent might not be that clear. My advise is first, never have sex with a girl thats drinking, or under the influence of anything. second, talk to her while your having sex and make sure she always has the openess to communicate to you what she wants or doesnt want. Third, porn is not real sex. Some girls may think that it is and may be willing to do the same stuff but never ever ever assume she is because in porn the girls have a script, a paycheck, and a contract where they pre-decide everything, but in real life everything is basically off the cuff and so if she starts crying or saying it hurts or anything clearly communicating discomfort, stop immediately, ask her if she wants to continue. If she doesnt, then stop. Also if youre having sex with someone who is immature, dont risk it. While most rape cases are true, there are some crazy women out there who have been known to lie which is wrong and takes a way attention from real rape cases that happen especially in the military and college campuses. i hope this helped a bit
Cent was right in the first segment for our generation. Ana is right for her generation. Times change and attitudes change.
Agreed. I think that’s the whole point, to make sure that everyone knows that?!
WTF people? Anna wasn’t being “fiery.” She was fucking right. Jesus Christ. I can’t even.
Holy shit Ana was just unwatchable in the first segment. Let the man finish his thought and then you can disagree with whatever he had to say. I feel like Cenk was trying to speak to a very specific audience and every time Ana intervened it ruined any chance Cenk had of reaching that audience. He was speaking to the male perspective on this issue and he was able to speak on the female perspective in the same segment, contrast them and ultimately come out with the right conclusion. Not allowing the other side to speak because you disagree with them is inadvertently saying I can’t win this argument so just stop talking, you’re making me uncomfortable…..
Cenk was right about my upbringing and saying no, then yes. I was raised in an oppressive religion. Even though I absolutely wanted sex, it was not okay for me to say so. I had to find someone who pressed the issue.
I realize now how twisted that is, but Cenk was definitely right as for as my upbringing affecting my reactions….which were really dumb.
Sexual coercion is also a part of rape culture. Consent is clear and enthusiastic, not something you talk someone in to
Steve Harvey is definately doing something weird in his dressing room.
I’m actually really glad Cenk went on the uncomfortable point that we still have to teach people consent, what it is, and how it can be withdrawn. I don’t remember consent being taught in sex-ed class, as they seemed to implicitly preach “don’t have sex before marriage”, when consent is mostly assumed.
The problem with being clear is a lot of young people just aren’t sure if they’re ready to have sex so it is a lot of mixed yes/no. Young, foolish, or uneducated, some people aren’t going to handle it the right way. Not everyone is as educated or informed as we think they are. These types of discussions need to happen.
Does the much-touted “Judeo-Christian heritage” responsibly include the vicious bigoted hatred (to the point of mass murder) that has been an undeniable part of the history of the middle eastern religions — from the story of the Amalakites, to the Crusades, to ISIS — not to mention the Holocaust, which would simply never have flown had it not been for the many centuries of Christian anti-Semitism that preceded it? Right after the murders at the gay nightclub in Orlando, two fundamentalist Christian so-called ministers posted to Youtube (independently of one another): “That’s 49 less pedophiles in the world.” I sometimes think my species the most stupid of all. I especially think that in this country.
You have to be able to have a conversation about tough topics and not be told your mansplaining or being crazy, or insensitive. I think there is a lot of truth in what Cenk was saying. There is a lot of unspoken pressure for women to be more prudent about sex. Be it through slut shaming by men or women, or through religion, or by the way many people instinctually want to blame women for rape by what they are wearing or if they were intoxicated.
Cenk pulled an Odd Future with that “FUCK STEVE HARVEY” lol
Lol, Anna is funny. Either dense, or unable to be objective.
The movies and tv Cenk is talking about over all have been made by men. Women aren’t taught to say no then yes then no. That is what men think women think. This goes way back. Jane Austen even makes fun of it. When Mr. Collins proposes to Elizabeth and she refuses he doesn’t believe her. He says some thing like that is just what your sex does. Elizabeth basicly has to yell and be cruel to get him to understand she isn’t playing games with him.
I’m leaning towards that explanation as well, but if made by men or not, don’t you think movies have affect people regardless who made them? I mean a lot of sexist stuff is produced by men, yet we always say that women are influenced by it, fell pressured by it etc. one way or another – beauty standards etc. ? So how can we say men are taught, but women are not? Usually who sees the movie is important, not who produced it? The question also always is who and why were got those movies produced, what influenced the people involved? I still think that it’s interactions between men and women who shape both worlds. If no man ever experienced a woman playing those games or heard other people (actual people someone knows) talking about it, I don’t think media is enough to influence us. It’s always the reception of media and how we talk about it. Also cross generational influences/older kids in school as role models, interactions with older siblings etc. Things that we hear are too shy to talk about and answer it in our own heads, insecurity that sometimes leads to believe the people talking shit etc. Lack of experience. Drawing the wrong conclusion out of one experience, mixing it up with stuff people say etc. emotional stress etc.
How many people f.e. behave in lots of irrational ways that they themselves regret if they interact with people they’re really attracted too. Now if a third person observes that behavior draws conclusions out of it that lack the emotional context. Completely without fault can now one person be responsibility for teaching someone a bad lesson etc. I don’t think we can say “men are taught”, “women are taught”. It’s all connected, action, reaction, counter action in an endless string that made society what it is today, shaped us all. What we should focus on is not how we got here, but what is the necessary thing to do to get to or towards the point we want to be. We can not simply say “stop telling boys this” or “stop telling girls this”, rather we should say “we have to teach boys that no means no, en of debate”, we should tell everyone not to play games etc. Concentrate on making the world a better place and get rid of rape culture, sexism in general, racism etc. instead of philosophising about how we got here – don’t get me wrong, it is an interesting question – that’s why I wrote 3 long ass comments so far, but it is one for sociologists, historians etc. an interesting intellectual debate, but only if we can actually identify and verify actual dynamics/”laws” would it be also helpful for the political debate imho
about the rape story:
it is awesome that you guys went there! discussing what could lead to something like this and how should(!) it work, it is a “dangerous” topic, easy to say the “wrong” thing, I was at the edge of my seat during the back and forth, but it has to be discussed like this, openly and intelligently.
Great job!
The problem with those questions in my opinion is that “society teaches boys”, “society teaches girls” can mean a billion things and none. And of course we all are at the end of the day still individuals with a lot of different, sometimes conflicting influences…
I see the problem with the “society teaches girls” framing, because it can come across as “she was not clear enough, so it’s partly her fault” – NO ONE in this forum nor Cenk is actually saying this, but it can come across that way. What is clear is that society teaches boys apparently that things are blurred. I think all the mentioned movies and songs are part of it. But media is never the reason for anything. Rape culture is obviously engrained in western culture – so in each and every one of us regardless of gender and it has a billion different forms. The problem is that the more victims are women and most rapists are men, but that’s like gender roles in general it’s a complicated back and forth. You can say that men being taught that girls being taught etc. f.e.
Cenk’s point was not that she had to be clearer and hence it’s partly her fault. Cenk’s point was that boys are being taught by their interactions with some women as well as people (sometimes women) actually saying to you that you’re an idiot and a loser if you think no meant no and that you missed out or are an object of ridicule because you hadn’t been persistent enough. It’s toxic, all of it, and again, complicated…
One last thing, it’s a coincidence, I don’t know what to make of it in that context or if it has anything to do with it/or a completely different issue, but 2 female colleagues of mine had a conversation the other day and I had to think about it after I wrote my last comment so I share it:
So the story is that one of the two has a friend that has a on/off relationship with a guy that comes over sometimes, they have sex, he leaves again. Damn I need names, so I make some up. So Sara is the one in the relationship, Ivana her best friend and Ivana and Petra are my colleagues. So Ivana tells the story and Petra says “of course she’ll never find someone who’s actually interested in her, if she has sex with them early on”, Ivana “that’s what I told her, but she’s like sometimes on a 3rd or 4th date”, “that’s way too early” says Petra, “of course guys will think she’s just a slut and immediately lose interest”. Ivana says “well sometimes she’s fucking them on the first date”. Petra “come on, she’s doing it because she already has feelings, but the guys of course will think she’s just a slut. That’s why I don’t wear short skirts anymore”. Ivana “I told her all of that a billion times, but she says she wants it and she says come on, I’m horny [both Petra and Ivana do the triple facepalm] Ivana “I asked her don’t you know how to take a cold shower or a bath or something”. Petra “I know a couple where that worked out, I think guys are on their period or don’t have balls anymore”
at that point I had to leave the lab or bang my head against a wall so hard I wouldn’t have been able to write that comment
by the way
Isn’t Hannah talking all the time on ThinkTank about those “silly” games, that people both men and women are doing it and how much she hates it? Hannah wasn’t born in the 20s or the 50s but in freakin’ 1991 so…
one last time, even if all of what Cenk says it’s true – if you’re insecure about a situation, don’t do anything, and definitely not if someone says no, no matter what – again, even if it were 100% true – choose to not have sex then before even considering a rape
I’m really disappointed in Ana’s attitude lately. She seems perpetually mad and like she doesn’t care what anyone else has to say, she slags on Cenk when he’s not there and flips attitude to everyone. Maybe you need a break from all this. The 2016 campaign took it’s toll on a lot of this. I know sexual abuse is a tough topic, my female instinct is to do same as Ana did here BUT it’s not just issue where she’s had these reactions. It’s like Ana hates everything and everyone right now. It’s showing through and turning me way off as a member. I basically stopped watching post games for the last month.
Very much agree MelBob. Seems like she’s listening less and less and resorting to shouting (which Cenk was not doing at all) which is what someone averse to new information, changes to information one currently knows or investigative research does. This is indeed a turnoff.
I gotta say that I love how fiery Ana is, even when I don’t agree with her like in the first segment, man we need way more fire and passion like that from progressives in the media. I loved it in the adoption segment, gave me goosebumps in a good way.
Goddamn it Ana, Cenk was making a good point (even if he was being oblivious to the sensitivity of this story). Ana, you’re only listening to the woman’s side of this, and ignoring what the guy said. Did he rape her, OF COURSE HE DID! But before hand she said “I don’t care what you do to me” and she did say she wanted to do stuff. That guy was being honest, that’s why he admitted that he raped her (even if he didn’t consider it rape). Cenk’s point is serious. Everyone needs to be absolutely clear about their no’s and yes’s. I’m your age, Ana, and when I was in High School girls did play coy all the time. Because of their coyness, I missed out on a lot of consensual sex because I didn’t want to play that game. I wanted a clear yes. Society does teach girls to play coy. Its not that a mom sits her daughter down and says “say no before yes”, but movies and TV and friends teach girls that playing coy is a good way to get a guy enticed. I have female friends that still do this to this day, that’s the way they like their sexual interactions to start. Its playful to them. I hate it. People need to not fuck around with fucking around, especially with a new sexual partner. Lets not add more grey areas to an already serious situation where intentions aren’t already clear.
And you are taking the guys word for it, that was never conformed by the video that was streamed. What WAS shown on that live streamed video that she was crying, struggling, and screaming a few times and the asshole kept going.
I definitely agree about Cenk’s point being valid, but also with the other commenter about taking what the perp did with a grain of salt. Maybe that’s his interpretation or he could be skewing the truth. In any case, I think what was missing from Cenk’s argument (and maybe what irritated Ana) is the argument of what we teach boys. All too often people will say, we need to teach girls this so they’re less likely to get raped. While I agree with Cenk about teaching kids to be clear about consent, every discussion like this needs to also include the fact that there is simply more emphasis on teaching girls to avoid rape than teaching boys not to rape and not to feel entitled to women’s bodies (or men’s bodies). People need to be clear about consent, yes, but people also need to take responsibility in ensuring they receive clear consent before doing anything.
*what the perp said I meant (in his police interview)
Adoption is forbidden in Islam (foster care is allowed), that is why they are comfortable with passing the law.
Just because an interpretation of Islam says adoption is forbidden doesn’t mean that Muslim Americans don’t adopt and shouldn’t adopt. Growing up in a heavily muslim area of Michigan when I was younger, I knew Muslim parents that adopted. The Texas law is outrageous and pure discrimination.
Cenk, you’re wrong. I’m 55. My parents were immigrants, I went to Catholic schools. We were taught to NEVER tease a boy. EVER. That’s being a prick-tease, or cock-tease. We young ladies were taught to always say NO until you ready to say YES. And that mostly came from my mother, grandmother, aunts, and older female cousins–not from the nuns, that’s for sure!
After I became a mother I taught my daughters the same. You don’t tease boys, or girls. (Because hey, I’m hip and cool, right?)
Unfortunately, I had to take this a step further on more than one occasion. I had to be the one to teach several of the boys who wanted to date my daughters, that just because they’re wearing a skirt, or shirt, or shorts, that you think is sexy, she’s not telling you she wants sex. She’s saying she’s a confident young woman. Touching her in a sexual way, without her permission, means you WILL go to jail and it will ruin the rest of your life even after you get out. Because you will have to register for the rest of your life as a sexual offender.
So far, one is married and the other is happily playing the field. If they teach their daughters the same thing (one day) then I will have “give myself an A, or even A+.”
DoberMom
Your life experience does not discount that of many other people. Go watch the video for the horrible Christmas song “Baby Its Cold Outside” for proof of how society teaches girls to say no then yes. I’m glad that your family taught you well. Immigrant communities tend to be much better at that then the average main-stream American family. Cenk was making a very valid point that if we want to end rape culture, everyone has to be clear. Sure, you can change your mind at any time of a sexual encounter, but if society teaches everyone to be clear about things, then this out-dated mindset of being coy will die and guys won’t be confused, or be able to use it as an excuse. I guarantee that there have been men who make that same argument to police and the police buy it and never charge them. Rape is serious, let’s teach everyone that sex is not a game.
Look damn it, a girl can say no, but even then she can act in way that to guys who want to hear yes, says no repeatedly, but still gets raped. Ana has it. There is NO TIME at all when a girl is screaming, (watch the video) crying an saying no that’s its okay to keep going.
For god sake, the girl is just being raped, period. How the hell hard is it for you Neolithic morons to get it through your dense , self satisfied, religious idiocy filled place that a normal human being has a conscience in, that NO means NO?
No one (here) is arguing with that? Of course NO means NO,
but how do you then explain what rape culture is and/or
WHY there are men, like the one here, who apparently don’t know that..?
Cenk, I was raised in the 50’s and 60’s and no girls were taught to say no and then yes. In the movies from the 1930’s and 40’s there were a lot of movies with the “cat and mouse” game you describe and the woman says no but really wants to do it and then gives in. I’m siding with Anna on this. Just keep it simple and talk about the way things are now – you don’t know what it was like for us females back then.
Just because you didn’t experience doesn’t mean you can accurately say that across this vast and varied land of ours no girls were taught that. I don’t mean taught that by their parents, but by society itself. I have witnessed that behavior many times, had female friends explain it to me as well. I live in a super conservative small city in the middle of nowhere in the midwest. Trust me, these “cat and mouse” games are still so alive its frightening, and they need to stop because until they do Rape Culture will not die.
OMG, you are so right! Sad. :(
Cenk’s side of the conversation was trying to inform the dumb kids that still need to learn no actually means no.
Sincerely,
a woman so no mansplainin
True, it seemed to me that he was running over what Ana had to say a bit. However, you are right. This is probably one of those cases where both people are right, depending on what one’s life experience is. Girls and boys are probably both taught, probably intentionally and unintentionally, to perpetuate the ridiculous cat-and-mouse game that ends up as part of the rape culture. :(
I don’t really get the controversy? When people talk about rape culture, isn’t that what Cenk is talking about?
The songs, the movies, the whole culture – I mean I would concentrate what boys are told, sure.
But the point is that society often blurs the lines when it comes to consent?!
That’s the reason why we have that conversation – if everything is 100% clear and the guy is “just” a fucking rapist, we wouldn’t have the need to talk about rape culture at all.
So what are the societal aspects of it and how do we deal with it, unfortunately that’s when 99% of conversations end instead of start… Every explanation is seen as excuse, again, why are we then even talking about a societal issue?
And btw I’m wondering and I don’t have an answer to this, but if we say a victim is a victim and if a crime happens it’s because of the perpetrator, maybe the male perspective on this issue is important, because women don’t have to change, men have to change and how the male perspective is and how your mind can get there only men can answer? If I’m wrong, where/how am I wrong?
Of course we can qualify a behavior or attitude as entitlement, but that doesn’t at all explain where the entitlement is coming from and how it gets instilled. If we believe it’s genetic, we don’t have to have the conversation. If it’s societal we have to look into the actual dynamics and can’t qualify that search as excuses – I wish it were as easy as “men get taught”, but no one sits a man down and flat out tells him no means yes either or “you have a right to her body”, it’s complex interactions learned over centuries, deeply engrained in western culture, so I guess the answer is also more complex than just saying “no means no” over and over again? That’s the goal, not the strategy nor a specific tactic – but the most important thing for me will always be to make sure we are talking about the bigger picture.
My principal stand on all crime is that if it already happened all we can do and should focus on is to prevent the same crime going into the future. If we are talking about crime in general, about prison and police culture the left always seems to agree on the overall principle and sees that there is not a single peace of evidence anywhere in the world that being tough on crime etc ever works, but then in specific instances like this we tend to throw all of that over board and talk about the importance of harsh punishments as deterrent like we’re right-wingers…
I dissed Ana the other day as cringe worthy to listen to. Strong show today, Ana. I guess even you can’t be perfect every day!
Cenk, I love you, man, but you really need to listen to Ana in the first segment.
Seriously, that’s all I was thinking the entire time. Cenk – YOU ARE TALKING TOO MUCH!!! LET ANA SPEAK!
Yes, I was taught to hold back until convinced by a lot of begging. But thankfully, things are changing for the better. Slowly but surely women are learning to take charge of their own wants and needs.
If a woman says no, take her word for it and back off immediately. If she really meant yes, then she will hopefully learn to say what she means and we will all be the better for it.
So sad but so true. There was one girl that I was staying with every night for a week, and she’d get all huffy because I didn’t make a move after she’d say she didn’t want sex. She ended up not calling me back anymore and her friend told me it was because she thought I didn’t want to sleep with her since I didn’t try to basically force myself on her. Its really sad that some women think they have to behave like that. I’m really glad that after reading so many of these comments that a lot of this country is moving forward, but don’t be blind people, there are many areas that are WAAAAY more conservative than where you live and this behavior is expected by some.
OMG, that is a tragedy. But thanks for bringing it to the light!
Eh i think cenk was wrong of cenk to lecture women on rape culture, literal case of mansplaining. At the same time I thought Ana escalated the situation to a point where it was uncomfortable to watch the rest of the hour. So im split. In the end it got overheated and weird.
Idk if I’d call that mansplaining, Cenk lectures and gives his point of view on everything, this time it was just rape culture.
I read your comment before I watched the show, and waited patiently for it to ‘escalate’ and get ‘overheated and weird’. Just didn’t see it that way. To each his/her own.
same
I just couldn’t see where she escalated it at all –
compare that to the Brett, Kim, Hannah show ~2weeks ago (banana noose story) –
tense till the bitter end.
or the Brett, Francis, Hannah St Patrick’s day show –
not as tense, but all about mansplaining :-)
Ughh, learn what mansplaining is please before you accuse people of it. Mansplaining is condescending, Cenk is never condescending, especially when talking to Ana. I love Ana, and I love how strong she is, but on rare occasions, when emotions are involved or she’s really passionate about something, she stops listening. Its very human of her and very forgivable, but like all of us she has to remember that different people have very different experiences in life and these viewpoints are all worth hearing and discussing. This is the first time Ana has actually made upset with it enough to pause the show and start ranting in the comments, lol.
You mean men are taught to push and push and push until we fucking give in. YOU MEN were taught we mean yes when we say no! Get it straight Cenk! It happened to me 3 fucking times! At NO time was I given a choice, either! Be clear about it! They never think they did anything wrong, because they are taught we mean yes, even when we say no, they are entitled! Fuck that shit!! Look at yourself Cenk! Look at how you were taught!
And I am a YEAR younger that you Cenk! NO we are not taught to say yes, ever!!! Or, no meaning yes! Get real MAN!!!
I know what Cenk was referring to. In our generation, girls were taught not to be “easy,” so even if they wanted to have sex, they’d say “no” so they wouldn’t be slut-shamed, while continuing to engage with the guy. Therefore the mixed signals. In response, guys were taught to be persistent. Put that together with rape culture and you have yourself a bad situation.
You hit the nail on the head. Let’s be happy though that rape culture is dying in many areas to the point that people scream at Cenk and say “that never happens”. But shutting him down on his valid point is also dangerous, because rape culture is not everywhere and it won’t die completely unless Cenk’s message is heard, and not shut down.
That’s how I lost mine too, and so many of my friends as well!! MOTHERFUCKER, NO MEANS FUCKING NO!!!!
depends on how you say no, if you’re being coy & what not then that means yes, but if you say it adamantly & seriously then, of course, that means no. this is the difference that cenk should have talked about.