Murder With Friends: Donner Party

In Membership, Murder With Friends - On Demand by Gigi Manukyan47 Comments

Grace Baldridge and Amir Nikoui talk about the unfortunate chronicles of the Donner Party. The group of American pioneers led by George Donner and James F. Reed who set out for California in a wagon train in May 1846, but got trapped in a snowstorm after getting lost. Members resorted to cannibalism to survive.

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  1. I know this is months old, but I’m just getting around to bingeing MWF. It’s interesting to me that there doesn’t seem to be much division in discussing cannibalism between psychotic murderers who include cannibalism and cannibalism for survival. Obviously, the Donner party begins to the straddle that line when they kill to consume. Maybe it’s just me? But there is a moral distinction to me. I get that there is a psychological barrier and I’m not lining up to eat my fellow homo sapiens anytime soon (read, ever that I can conceive of). But I can absolutely see it happening when the alternative is death. Human will to survive is strong and there is a point at which meat is meat. There is a revulsion, to be certain, but I guess I wouldn’t imagine myself never doing it in that kind of extreme situation.

    That said, I agree with those who question their preparedness, given that there was no experienced hunter/fisher/gatherer there to guide or assist. Seems akin to going on Survivor – you learn to start fires and figure out how to build primitive shelters before taping starts. You should know the basics of how to survive in order to be successful. But then, I’m also someone who has seriously looked into prepping and other survivalist stuff and ruled it out solely because I live in a big city and will die before reaching a space one could feasibly survive. So. I’m morbidly well suited to this show.

  2. As odd as it is, Amir is not the first to wonder about the eating yourself thing. In fact, experts have weighed in. The general consensus is it would not work for several reasons. One, you’d waste a lot of energy in the cutting – even if it’s just a small part. Because your adrenaline spikes with the pain and it takes kind of a lot of strength to and time to cut out chunks of flesh – let alone to go through bone. Two, you’d burn up a lot of calories in healing, and if you got feverish with infection or anything, presumably no one would be around to help you and you’d die. Three, the calories would be mostly empty – your malnourished body would be eating its malnourished self in a terrible cycle.

    1. Not only this, eating parts of yourself to stay alive is inefficient compared to how your body naturally adapts in a starvation scenario. The body will begin to divert resources and shut down unessential systems trying to conserve energy.

  3. AMIR! I love your Witcher 3 medallion! I have the same one. Geralt totally would eat a human if necessary. He’s honestly like the perfect cannibal killer. Void of emotion, able to consume toxic concoctions, skilled and trained with magic and the ability to kill either by stealth or strength. I LOVE MURDER WITH FRIENDS!

  4. There were no suicides because it was believed that would land you in hell. It wouldn’t occur to us to today to think like that.

  6. First time watching Murder with Friends. I had heard about it, I think, on Aggressive Progressives. If memory serves Steve Oh was telling Jimmy how cool a show it is. I have to agree, Im going back to watch some past episodes now

    Thanks TYT Network!

  10. Amir, you pose an interesting idea about subsisting on, say, “Soup de Digit dejour” or “Cream of Bicuspid, in Tongue Sauce,” but sadly: No, this would not work. Ask John or Hannah about the first law of thermodynamics, also known as the Law of Conservation of Energy, which states that energy cannot be created or destroyed in an isolated system (the Donner Party seemingly qualifies as “isolated”). In short, one would expend (much) more energy hacking off body parts and in ingestion / digestion than would be provided by their consumption.

  11. Wow! What a great show! You should thank Steve Oh for giving you a plug on the Aggressive Progressives. I’m binge watching all of them now. So interesting…and yes, creepy…but hey, that’s okay. I have friends who will love this show as well.

  12. Cool to see you do this story. I grew up in Reno, NV I drove over Donner Summit, went to Donner Lake, camped at Alder Creek. In 7th grade in American History class we had to read the book ‘Ordeal by Hunger’. The story is very familiar to any of us who grew up, or even spend a lot of time in the Reno/Tahoe/Truckee areas.

  15. Back then the term survival of the fittest was way more relevant. With that said it’s not like they were stuck on some frozen island. They lost a little of my sorrow when I heard they resorted to killing each other to survive when they still had rifles and bullets. I mean you’re going to trek west for months and you don’t have an experienced hunter or trapper in your party? You are camped by a lake but don’t have single person who knows how to fish? I feel for them because it’s like shooting yourself in both feet then trying to run a marathon. You don’t survive being lost and alone by the actions you take when your brain is playing tricks, you survive from the preparation and training you go through before you leave. Seems like they were dead before they even left.

  16. Omg yes!!!! I’ve been waiting for you to do this segment for forever!!! I have such a weird obsession with this case! I knew you would do it justice ????????

  17. And another thing. I’ve been sick and tired of all the fictional cotton candy spun around that ‘manifest destiny’ ‘wild west’ thing for uncountable years. You guys are right to point out the Donner Party weren’t the first to lose it out there. All that land Washington couldn’t reach meant a lot more than cannibalism, it meant shooting your grandma out of her senile life and making short work of a few other family members you didn’t have medicine or patience for. OF COUURRRSEEEE the government didn’t want these stories to get out, though it is funny how the ‘long arm of the law’ was long enough to sugarcoat all that grossness but not long enough to stop it from happening in the first place.

  18. Eating yourself. Good grief Amir, it’s Murder With Friends not Friends Murdering Themselves.

    Then there’s that horrific 1981 case of a young Japanese college student, Issei Sagawa, in Paris who during his Ph.D studies lured a fellow student from Holland to his place, killed her and ate parts of her. Way before that this creep snuck into a German woman’s home in Tokyo, sliced some flesh off her and tried to get away to eat when he got caught. The guy’s rich daddy got a judge to let him off with a slap on the wrist and a rape charge which in those days in Japan didn’t spell any kind of real criminal record. That rich daddy got a lawyer to let him off on that cold, calculated murder and cannibalism too, it INFURIATES me that he’s walking around free to this day in Japan. He even gets interviewed and keeps trying to get his book published. The guy needs to be thrown fully conscious in a pool of piranhas.

    1. Oh Yeah, I recall he used Diplomatic immunity from his Father to wiggle free from prosecution. Some one aught to take a chunk outta him!…not me though.

  19. 1) I have heard of the Donner party just because I saw it referenced in the comics section once and didn’t get the joke.

    2) Curiosity caused me to research it a bit but WOW, so much more that I never knew! Thanks for the good episode Grace and Emir.

    3) Emir, if ever you get lost on a deserted island, I vote you make sure to pack a pair of breeding rabbits. Please.

  20. Love your haircut Grace. So cute.

    There is a now unlicensed doc here in Dallas who got life for botched surgeries. I can’t find the article where he said he wanted to be a serial killer through surgery. His name is Christopher Duntch. Two did die and he maimed quite a few more.

    The Donner party put a lot of puzzle pieces in place for me. Thanks. Have a safe trip.

  21. Could you do the murders the movie Party Monster is based on??? The movie makes it look like some crazzzzzy shit!

    Also, just wanted to let you guys know this show is awesome! I’m always looking forward to the next episode even though I’m a total scaredy-cat and have to run around my apartment turning on the lights at night after watching an episode.
    Can’t wait to see what you guys do next.

  23. Can you please do a mass shootimg
    Or kids who kill that is psychologicly very interesting.

    Or celebs murphy couple who died. Or marilyn monroe. That tox and autopsy proved it couldnt been a suicide. Would now her murder be solved happend it now or would the murderer have better technique also.

    Also im sorry bit this episode was my least favorite. Beside the short time it was not very clear nor very interesting.

    Please do 1 or more from what i suggested please? Or maybe in that direction..?

    Love

  24. I get why u assume the native american plot to kull them is because there ‘different’ but could also be because they wouldnt eat and maybe they were looking very weak already you know? Like killing the weakest. Idk how weak they were in comparisson. But to assume its only because there different is in my view i to quick assumsion.

    Also dear grace and others from the show. Hope you read this can you please make 1 hour episode again? I thought some episode are 1 hour long. Some +-50 min
    But 42 is very short. Please?? You can tell so much more of most of the storys please please make it about 1 hour 60 min.
    Not 42.

    In this case the route the map i did not get it. You could have made it so there were only 2 colors and tell which is what.

    Also why after seeing the path not going wel dont they before the mountains try to live the winter in a village? Why was this meant to happen in short period? I dont get that.
    You could have made a 3 year plan. Take save strenght at stop points where man and woman can try to get work at a village. Get supplies food. Try to learn from different tribes how to hunt and fish.

    Then go again rested full of supplies and food. Then same after a part stop at good village or place. Rest get food. Learn more. Stay safe in village for winters.
    It was a expedition to live forever in the west right? So why take the risks and hush?

    All these points good have been explored and more of the diaries
    >>> 60 +- show

    Much love from holland

    Inge

    Ps sorry if my english is not that great i tried to get my point so you understand what i mean.

    1. I can’t answer most of your post except regarding longer episodes. Grace & Emir, listen to Gadey, please!

      Regarding stopping in a village to rest through the winter, remember that this was pioneer land. There were few towns and villages, indeed, the area had only just begun to populate. The Bureau of the Census in 1850 recorded 11,873 Oregonians: 4,671 females and 7,202 males, in an area about 98,466 miles or 158465 kilometers. Remember, this population census was nearly a decade later, more settlers had poured into the state after the Donner party happened in the early 1840’s.

      And those new towns faced terrible conditions themselves, from cholera epidemics and other illnesses to fighting the unbroken land for their fields. Wild wolves would often eat their livestock, and let us not forget the American Indians of the time were justifiably upset that strangers were just coming in and changing their lands without permission or any thought about what their actions were doing to the natives, with war parties of fierce native warriors being a frequent result. Now you add on feeding 80 passerby through the winter in a town, if you can even find one, and things become very difficult indeed.

      The travelers and what they went through shows the desperate and courageous gamble required, and is the essence of what it means to be a pioneer.

    2. “get work at a village” — what villages? The western frontier was not akin to traveling across Europe. There were thousands of miles without any inhabitants except Native Americans, and they were not into providing employment opportunities for invading trespassing Europeans.

      We talk today about “brave strong” pioneers but in truth, all types departed from the East Coast and headed West — some were brave and strong, some were weak and unfit, and most fell in between. There was no test to pass, before you were dubbed “ready to pioneer.” It was a free-for-all. And a very Darwinesque one, at that. Talk about weeding out the weak…!

  25. I got hungry at work and ate 3 of my fingers once. It held me over until lunch break, but I dunno about sustaining for weeks or even months that way.

  26. Look up fullmetal alchemist equal exchange, I know I know its Anime nonsense, but I do think that in the biological sense, (and I know nothing about biology) the energy gained through eating a part of your body with never be greater than the organ loss, so basically you will be equally if not worse off for having eaten a part of your body, however unnecessary the organ might be.

  28. Your point about the personality type or the spirit of those individuals who chose to brave such unknown possibilities really makes a person wonder, but the case of the airplane crash suggests that this is a latent tendency within a larger portion of the population, perhaps something most humans will revert to when so manipulated by circumstance. Also, Amir’s choice to highlight the pattern of this type of behavior in extreme environments is very interesting. I Watched a special on PBS about Jamestown, and how archeologists found evidence of cannibalism there, and there were also incidents of cannibalism surrounding the last expedition of John Franklin (also an excellent documentary on PBS). In that case, if I recall correctly, there was mention of native Canadians whose reaction was much the same as the Indian guides in this example. Does anyone know if there exists a cannibalism in space movie? It is the last frontier- high rate of unknowns, good chance groups would face unforeseen challenges, or dire circumstances- hence the increased likelihood of resorting to cannibalism. If someone made that film, although I can almost bet it would be a disaster, it should have a Native American hero.

  29. It is possible to self cannibalize to extend your life for a limited amount of time dependent on the amount of water you have. Your own urine would extend you maybe for a week or two. With a steady water supply, maybe 3-5 weeks. You will also need an understanding of physiology for the butchery, and being a masochist couldn’t hurt. The buttocks, feet, & legs. Each severing or cut would need to be cauterized with a flame or hot object. It would take a lot of psychological strength to go through with something like this…
    On a tangent, I recall an old case back in the early 2000’s (Germany) of a male European loner who developed an online relationship with a suicidal male. The suicidal individual was willing to have the Loner kill him. They eventually meet up and go through with the deed which included the severing of the victims penis which was consumed by both of them…is anyone else familiar with this case?

    1. OH shit! You are right I do remember that! It was crazy, didnt they find the body remains of the suicidal bloke which was willing to go ahead with it. Damn.

      1. p.s. Grace & Amir– i just saw this documentary on Armin and his life and crime. it’s an incredible story, you have GOT to see this! idk if you’ll cover it, but here’s the link — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYBgqqpZvYs

        also, don’t forget about Leonard Lake & Charles Ng — those two are really awful human beings, and it would be nice to kick back and enjoy hearing about them now that they can do no more harm. as Trump would say, “Bad.”

  30. Biologist here to chime in on Amir’s question! When you consume fewer calories than you expend, your body automatically begins consuming itself. It starts by converting any fat stored within your body into energy. Once it uses up all of the fat possible, it begins breaking down your muscles. A body can support life in this way for a surprisingly long time. If instead you were to consume yourself externally, you would die much more quickly due to infection and/or blood loss than if you just let your body consume you internally :)

  31. To date I have only infrequently watched Murder With Friends – though I love it every time I do. After checking into today’s episode, I will be setting my schedule of watching to “frequently” – seriously Grace, nicely done. I learned more about the Donner Party than ever before.

  33. Ok so first, I have heard of the Donner party but you guys illuminated a lot of interesting speculations I’d never thought about! Thanks! I have to agree with Amir that when yours or your family’s exsistance comes to either going mad and being eaten or eating someone who’s already died, you may not be thinking in the same way as if you’d just eaten a nice sandwich for lunch. Also, so interesting to think that if there were no suicides at that time, the reason might be because all you were trying to do in life was survive and live this amazing life in California, whereas now we are already living that life and all we have to live for is our relationships, careers et, that if we loose them, our life is already over.

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