Grace Baldridge and Jayar Jackson talk about the Beltway Snipers attacks, a series of coordinated shootings that took place in October 2002 in Virginia, Maryland, and Washington D.C.
I was a middle schooler in the DC metro area when this was happening. I remember nor being able to go outside for gym for months. My Mom would drive me to school instead of allowing me to take the 45 minute bus ride because she was terrified of my school bus being shot up. I couldn’t even imagine. Me being an oblivious preteen, I never knew it was even national news, but we would visit my family in the mid-west that year and all they would ask me and my brother about was about the DC shooter. It was intense. Especially being only a year after 9/11.
I was in the area, in high school at the time. I remember after-school activities being canceled and rumors that schools would be shut down so kids wouldn’t be standing at bus stops.
My most vivid memory was after we had heard that it was likely a white van, I remember standing at the bus stop in the morning and thinking how screwed we were that it was a white van because of how ubiquitous they are. I prepared myself to jump behind a nearby bush whenever they passed by. It was very unnerving.
It got to the point that I didn’t want to hear the latest news about it because it was just making people more and more nervous. When they were finally caught there was such a sense of relief. It doesn’t compare to 9/11 obviously, but I got that same sense of collective feelings as I did from that.
This was great to see Jayar in this way. Kind of giddy. A bit of a worry but as I’m in Australia I feel quite safe in asking to see him on murder with friends more often.
Okay, here it comes. I know everyone is going to have a problem with this but, while I don’t believe in Capital Punishment I have no problem with a Death Penalty as a thought exercise and here’s my thinking. I don’t see why we would want to rehabilitate someone who has been proven guilty of murder beyond a shadow of a doubt, more on this later, rather than put them to sleep forever. What if you do actually rehabilitate a person and could prove it. Then they would be in jail for the rest of their lives for something an earlier broken version of themselves did, not that I believe it happens very often, but if it did happen is it now right to hold them for something they are no longer capable of doing and probably will never forgive themselves for and what of society, should we expend the effort on those who have made the choice to wade into that murky tide rather than on prevention. Should we pay for them year in and year out even if they revel in their deeds till the day they die of old age. What if we parole them, will we employ them, will we invite them to our homes or allow them to enter into a relationship with our children?
I believe in personal responsibility. I also know from the dark childhood I had all the way through my teens how easy it would be to commit murder. Even now as I near fifty I can imagine enjoying taking a life because I felt like it. Don’t get me wrong I am not a psycho, a freak to be sure , I’m just honest and can turn that side of of myself on and off at will. I DECIDED not to go down that path when I was 19 and unless I was put in a situation where I was defending myself or another, I would never kill another. At the same time, we do need to keep it real. We are animals, hunters and unfortunately killers but our higher brains allow us to alter our reality and I chose to alter mine. the fact that they didn’t, that they allowed themselves the pleasure of feeling all powerful speaks to how small they really were and make no mistake they made that choice with a smile on their face. So no, they have strayed beyond societies number one rule and have to pay the penalty, accept…
Here’s the rub, not only are we animals we are also tribal which is why we have war and racism and as long as we have racism I don’t think I can trust a prosecutor, judge or a jury to apply such a penalty fairly. Just look at how the law is applied differently to blacks verses whites. Some of the most numerous and egregious crimes in our society are the ones White Judges have committed against young men of a different race. Maybe there will come a time when the science is full proof and we are evolved enough to fairly administer the law. In truth it saddens me to think that by the time racism is a thing of the past so will be murder. Then I listen to Donald J. Trump and have to fight the urge to rethink some of the decisions I have made over the course of my life.
I really liked having Jayar on the show, and I hope you do more shows where you start with the crime before moving on to the investigation. It made the investigation, the crime and the victims stand out more, and not be overshadowed by the murderers.
@Jayar: I think the fact that you cannot really draw a line between 17 and a half and 18 is why there are youth courts in many countries that extend up to young adults of the age of 25. This is to protect young people with a slow development who actually are still kids even if they are off age. Unfortunately, the US has a policy that allows even minors of the age of 14 or 13 the get life sentences even if you cannot with good conscience say that they knew were fully aware of the consequences of their actions.
I enjoyed this episode, even though, as you pointed out, it did get very confusing. At some points I think there was just a lot to cover within your time frame so it could seem like you were rambling, or rushing through the material. What stood out to me within the case was the element of manipulation. Not only was the older man able to “mold” his younger counterpart but the younger counterpart was easily molded. It is scary to think that, at least on some levels, each of us is susceptible to manipulation of some kind. We all can be lead in one direction or another. The important factor becomes to what degree. When is the resultant action crossing a line and how many dominoes have to fall for that line to be crossed. I suppose if one was to relate this to TYT’s catch phrase, “we are the watchers on the wall,” it becomes clear that that wall represents a clearly defined boundary beyond which said watchers will not allow passage. Trump is doing much the same thing in pushing his version of a line to not be crossed. These are just two examples of ways people can be led toward taking a position upon an idea or belief. What becomes dangerous, on so many levels, is when that position transforms into actions. Yet, the opposite is true as well — inaction can be very dangerous too. Finding that balance is difficult, much like finding a balance was difficult for the police in this instance. It seems that what aided their efforts was a firm basis in facts and evidence and the ability to communicate, albeit in antiquated ways, with departments on the other side of the country. Reaching out to share information allowed them to solve the problem. Well, now I feel like I am rambling. I was really just in a bit of a rush to get that down, to share my thoughts about the case. I think that’s evidence that your presentation was very thought provoking.
I agree with sadakotestuwan, the Aum Shinrikyo murders would be really good to cover Grace. I think it was the first case where that ridiculous 15-year statute of limitations on murders in Japan was removed. Some of my friends said most of the culprits must’ve thrown themselves down a volcano so they’d never be found, but they did end up finding every one of them. One find was pretty comical, the guy turned himself in to a police station in Shinagawa, Tokyo one night and, with the posters up in full view all around, the cops in so many words told him ‘No you’re not’ and sent him home! Ain’t that wild? Then the guy took a train 10 minutes away to Ebisu, Tokyo and popped into a police station there, where they almost turned him away again. See if you can find a TV network over here in Japan that’ll bring up THAT stupid embarrassment again. That arrest led to one final arrest I believe.
I’d never heard of the Beltway murders until this episode Grace and Jayar. It was less than a year since I returned two weeks late from New Orleans due to the flight holdups during 9/11, all my friends in Tokyo were glad to see me back safely and the news over here was almost exclusively about 9/11 and the Japanese who died in the towers. That was indeed when cell phones were huge flip brick things with multicolor flashing antennae we used to deliberately buy to be cool. Dial-up internet, no real social media and shit, you would’ve had to really go out of your way and lose salary doing it to find out anything the mainstream didn’t want you to know back then. What a horrible story. But four things are very important to realize here — #1: Most killings like this are done by homegrown American terrorists, #2: Black / African American people are just as capable as any other type of American of being an inhuman monster and #3: the antiquated death penalty creates way more problems than it solves so it must be abolished and #4: Americans still haven’t learned a goddamn thing about the importance of restricting assault rifles in all this time.
Loved you on this show Jayar, please come back for the Son of Sam murders or the President McKinley murder with Grace and her brother!
Love the show–I remember the attacks being in the news and kind of muttered about between teachers, but we were literally halfway across the country, so it touched our kiddie lives relatively little.
How about an episode on Aum Shinrikyo, the late 80’s/early 90’s cult in Japan that carried out the Tokyo Sarin Gas Attack? Their leader was a Manson-like figure who managed to recruit the best and brightest young Japanese scholars to his doomsday cult, and had plans to use Nikola Tesla’s research to build death rays and weather control satellites and earthquake generators in order to usher in the End of Days.
The cult had a paramilitary arm within it that carried out multiple kidnappings, assassinations and assassination attempts throughout the early 90’s, leading up to TWO sarin attacks (1994 and 1995). Even up until recently, there were Wanted posters up in almost every train and subway station I frequented in the Tokyo area. Two of the remaining three at-large suspects were captured while I was studying abroad, so my Japanese Religious Studies classes spent a lot of time talking about Aum (not to mention my university was right where the attacks happened; two of the attackers boarded at my subway station, and my professor personally recalled the attacks).
The cult is still in operation under two different names (Aleph, the rebranded cult, and a splinter group called Hikari no Wa), and has branches in Europe to this day.
Loved this episode! I remember this case vividly. I had moved to Oklahoma from Virginia, and still had several friends there, as well as my brother. Everyone was on edge, and it was always a question of whether or not they would ever catch the guys responsible, or if they would end up feeling like they accomplished what they came to do first and get away with it.
I really enjoyed Jayar’s input. I watch a lot of true crime shows as well, and I’ve seen every episode of Forensic Files at least twice. Homicide Hunter on ID is also a really good show. Not as good as MWF, obviously. I adore this show. I really like that you explore a lot of philosophical aspects of these stories, which is something missing from most true crime shows. It’s an important aspect, and probably the most important, especially ones where enough time has passed that we can get some perspective on it.
one of the best episodes. we need more Jayar!!! his insights are scintillating, as are your well-researched points, Grace. i’m with you, Jayar — i only watch real crime, not the fake Hollywood crap that plays like a maudlin Aesop’s fable. have you seen the website thisiscriminal.com? it’s a wonderful true-crime podcast, sometimes horrible, sometimes humorous, always interesting and always not fake news.
Never heard about this story before, so this was a pretty thrilling episode. Loved hearing from Jayar. I only started watching TYT during the primaries, so I haven’t seen much from him. Happy to see Jayar on more of the programs now. He’s got some great insight and is quickly becoming one of my favourite commentators.
Gotta hand it to the Murder with Friends people for picking some great guests for each episode. I’d love to see Johnny Pie do an episode sometime.
This was a great episode. I lived in Montgomery County, Maryland, when this happened, and remember it vividly. It was absolutely terrifying. I have always wondered why more true crime shows didn’t cover it, so I was happy to see that one of my favorite TYT shows dedicated an episode to it. I also loved Jayar’s insights, and hope he comes on the show more. Can’t wait for the next one!
I’m enjoying the show more and more. I especially liked the ones dealing with the Port Arthur massacre and the freeway killers. Jayar was a welcome addition. One thing he said struck me and suggests a topic for a MWF episode. He talked about the most common form of execution, lethal injection, as being painless, and that therefore it doesn’t provide the sense of revenge that the victims’ loved ones presumably seek. First of all, lethal injection is, by my understanding, not usually painless. And is a painful death a desirable outcome?
I’m obsessed with this show. You need to do “The ken and barbie killers” Paul Bernardo & Karla Homolka. There’s a really good drama on netflix about it called “Karla” Keep up the good work grace.
I forgot all about this case. I had just started a new job and moved to a new place. I remember now. I followed it very closely at the time. I was glued to CNN every night until and after they got them.
Absolutely great episode and conversation on the mental capacities of both shooters. I enjoy the philosophical concepts which come into play, it’s difficult not to wonder if with proper treatment could the majority of mass murders be prevented.
I look forward to ever Murder With Friends episode.
Comments
I was a middle schooler in the DC metro area when this was happening. I remember nor being able to go outside for gym for months. My Mom would drive me to school instead of allowing me to take the 45 minute bus ride because she was terrified of my school bus being shot up. I couldn’t even imagine. Me being an oblivious preteen, I never knew it was even national news, but we would visit my family in the mid-west that year and all they would ask me and my brother about was about the DC shooter. It was intense. Especially being only a year after 9/11.
I was in the area, in high school at the time. I remember after-school activities being canceled and rumors that schools would be shut down so kids wouldn’t be standing at bus stops.
My most vivid memory was after we had heard that it was likely a white van, I remember standing at the bus stop in the morning and thinking how screwed we were that it was a white van because of how ubiquitous they are. I prepared myself to jump behind a nearby bush whenever they passed by. It was very unnerving.
It got to the point that I didn’t want to hear the latest news about it because it was just making people more and more nervous. When they were finally caught there was such a sense of relief. It doesn’t compare to 9/11 obviously, but I got that same sense of collective feelings as I did from that.
This was great to see Jayar in this way. Kind of giddy. A bit of a worry but as I’m in Australia I feel quite safe in asking to see him on murder with friends more often.
Okay, here it comes. I know everyone is going to have a problem with this but, while I don’t believe in Capital Punishment I have no problem with a Death Penalty as a thought exercise and here’s my thinking. I don’t see why we would want to rehabilitate someone who has been proven guilty of murder beyond a shadow of a doubt, more on this later, rather than put them to sleep forever. What if you do actually rehabilitate a person and could prove it. Then they would be in jail for the rest of their lives for something an earlier broken version of themselves did, not that I believe it happens very often, but if it did happen is it now right to hold them for something they are no longer capable of doing and probably will never forgive themselves for and what of society, should we expend the effort on those who have made the choice to wade into that murky tide rather than on prevention. Should we pay for them year in and year out even if they revel in their deeds till the day they die of old age. What if we parole them, will we employ them, will we invite them to our homes or allow them to enter into a relationship with our children?
I believe in personal responsibility. I also know from the dark childhood I had all the way through my teens how easy it would be to commit murder. Even now as I near fifty I can imagine enjoying taking a life because I felt like it. Don’t get me wrong I am not a psycho, a freak to be sure , I’m just honest and can turn that side of of myself on and off at will. I DECIDED not to go down that path when I was 19 and unless I was put in a situation where I was defending myself or another, I would never kill another. At the same time, we do need to keep it real. We are animals, hunters and unfortunately killers but our higher brains allow us to alter our reality and I chose to alter mine. the fact that they didn’t, that they allowed themselves the pleasure of feeling all powerful speaks to how small they really were and make no mistake they made that choice with a smile on their face. So no, they have strayed beyond societies number one rule and have to pay the penalty, accept…
Here’s the rub, not only are we animals we are also tribal which is why we have war and racism and as long as we have racism I don’t think I can trust a prosecutor, judge or a jury to apply such a penalty fairly. Just look at how the law is applied differently to blacks verses whites. Some of the most numerous and egregious crimes in our society are the ones White Judges have committed against young men of a different race. Maybe there will come a time when the science is full proof and we are evolved enough to fairly administer the law. In truth it saddens me to think that by the time racism is a thing of the past so will be murder. Then I listen to Donald J. Trump and have to fight the urge to rethink some of the decisions I have made over the course of my life.
I really liked having Jayar on the show, and I hope you do more shows where you start with the crime before moving on to the investigation. It made the investigation, the crime and the victims stand out more, and not be overshadowed by the murderers.
When was there ever a promo on the main show? I still do not know what day and time exactly this show comes out, and it is my favorite
There’s been quite a few. On YouTube I believe there’s a release every Wednesday. There seem to be consistent releases here for members.
@Jayar: I think the fact that you cannot really draw a line between 17 and a half and 18 is why there are youth courts in many countries that extend up to young adults of the age of 25. This is to protect young people with a slow development who actually are still kids even if they are off age. Unfortunately, the US has a policy that allows even minors of the age of 14 or 13 the get life sentences even if you cannot with good conscience say that they knew were fully aware of the consequences of their actions.
I enjoyed this episode, even though, as you pointed out, it did get very confusing. At some points I think there was just a lot to cover within your time frame so it could seem like you were rambling, or rushing through the material. What stood out to me within the case was the element of manipulation. Not only was the older man able to “mold” his younger counterpart but the younger counterpart was easily molded. It is scary to think that, at least on some levels, each of us is susceptible to manipulation of some kind. We all can be lead in one direction or another. The important factor becomes to what degree. When is the resultant action crossing a line and how many dominoes have to fall for that line to be crossed. I suppose if one was to relate this to TYT’s catch phrase, “we are the watchers on the wall,” it becomes clear that that wall represents a clearly defined boundary beyond which said watchers will not allow passage. Trump is doing much the same thing in pushing his version of a line to not be crossed. These are just two examples of ways people can be led toward taking a position upon an idea or belief. What becomes dangerous, on so many levels, is when that position transforms into actions. Yet, the opposite is true as well — inaction can be very dangerous too. Finding that balance is difficult, much like finding a balance was difficult for the police in this instance. It seems that what aided their efforts was a firm basis in facts and evidence and the ability to communicate, albeit in antiquated ways, with departments on the other side of the country. Reaching out to share information allowed them to solve the problem. Well, now I feel like I am rambling. I was really just in a bit of a rush to get that down, to share my thoughts about the case. I think that’s evidence that your presentation was very thought provoking.
I agree with sadakotestuwan, the Aum Shinrikyo murders would be really good to cover Grace. I think it was the first case where that ridiculous 15-year statute of limitations on murders in Japan was removed. Some of my friends said most of the culprits must’ve thrown themselves down a volcano so they’d never be found, but they did end up finding every one of them. One find was pretty comical, the guy turned himself in to a police station in Shinagawa, Tokyo one night and, with the posters up in full view all around, the cops in so many words told him ‘No you’re not’ and sent him home! Ain’t that wild? Then the guy took a train 10 minutes away to Ebisu, Tokyo and popped into a police station there, where they almost turned him away again. See if you can find a TV network over here in Japan that’ll bring up THAT stupid embarrassment again. That arrest led to one final arrest I believe.
I’d never heard of the Beltway murders until this episode Grace and Jayar. It was less than a year since I returned two weeks late from New Orleans due to the flight holdups during 9/11, all my friends in Tokyo were glad to see me back safely and the news over here was almost exclusively about 9/11 and the Japanese who died in the towers. That was indeed when cell phones were huge flip brick things with multicolor flashing antennae we used to deliberately buy to be cool. Dial-up internet, no real social media and shit, you would’ve had to really go out of your way and lose salary doing it to find out anything the mainstream didn’t want you to know back then. What a horrible story. But four things are very important to realize here — #1: Most killings like this are done by homegrown American terrorists, #2: Black / African American people are just as capable as any other type of American of being an inhuman monster and #3: the antiquated death penalty creates way more problems than it solves so it must be abolished and #4: Americans still haven’t learned a goddamn thing about the importance of restricting assault rifles in all this time.
Loved you on this show Jayar, please come back for the Son of Sam murders or the President McKinley murder with Grace and her brother!
Love the show–I remember the attacks being in the news and kind of muttered about between teachers, but we were literally halfway across the country, so it touched our kiddie lives relatively little.
How about an episode on Aum Shinrikyo, the late 80’s/early 90’s cult in Japan that carried out the Tokyo Sarin Gas Attack? Their leader was a Manson-like figure who managed to recruit the best and brightest young Japanese scholars to his doomsday cult, and had plans to use Nikola Tesla’s research to build death rays and weather control satellites and earthquake generators in order to usher in the End of Days.
The cult had a paramilitary arm within it that carried out multiple kidnappings, assassinations and assassination attempts throughout the early 90’s, leading up to TWO sarin attacks (1994 and 1995). Even up until recently, there were Wanted posters up in almost every train and subway station I frequented in the Tokyo area. Two of the remaining three at-large suspects were captured while I was studying abroad, so my Japanese Religious Studies classes spent a lot of time talking about Aum (not to mention my university was right where the attacks happened; two of the attackers boarded at my subway station, and my professor personally recalled the attacks).
The cult is still in operation under two different names (Aleph, the rebranded cult, and a splinter group called Hikari no Wa), and has branches in Europe to this day.
Loved this episode! I remember this case vividly. I had moved to Oklahoma from Virginia, and still had several friends there, as well as my brother. Everyone was on edge, and it was always a question of whether or not they would ever catch the guys responsible, or if they would end up feeling like they accomplished what they came to do first and get away with it.
I really enjoyed Jayar’s input. I watch a lot of true crime shows as well, and I’ve seen every episode of Forensic Files at least twice. Homicide Hunter on ID is also a really good show. Not as good as MWF, obviously. I adore this show. I really like that you explore a lot of philosophical aspects of these stories, which is something missing from most true crime shows. It’s an important aspect, and probably the most important, especially ones where enough time has passed that we can get some perspective on it.
one of the best episodes. we need more Jayar!!! his insights are scintillating, as are your well-researched points, Grace. i’m with you, Jayar — i only watch real crime, not the fake Hollywood crap that plays like a maudlin Aesop’s fable. have you seen the website thisiscriminal.com? it’s a wonderful true-crime podcast, sometimes horrible, sometimes humorous, always interesting and always not fake news.
Never heard about this story before, so this was a pretty thrilling episode. Loved hearing from Jayar. I only started watching TYT during the primaries, so I haven’t seen much from him. Happy to see Jayar on more of the programs now. He’s got some great insight and is quickly becoming one of my favourite commentators.
Gotta hand it to the Murder with Friends people for picking some great guests for each episode. I’d love to see Johnny Pie do an episode sometime.
This was a great episode. I lived in Montgomery County, Maryland, when this happened, and remember it vividly. It was absolutely terrifying. I have always wondered why more true crime shows didn’t cover it, so I was happy to see that one of my favorite TYT shows dedicated an episode to it. I also loved Jayar’s insights, and hope he comes on the show more. Can’t wait for the next one!
I’m enjoying the show more and more. I especially liked the ones dealing with the Port Arthur massacre and the freeway killers. Jayar was a welcome addition. One thing he said struck me and suggests a topic for a MWF episode. He talked about the most common form of execution, lethal injection, as being painless, and that therefore it doesn’t provide the sense of revenge that the victims’ loved ones presumably seek. First of all, lethal injection is, by my understanding, not usually painless. And is a painful death a desirable outcome?
I love this show so much. Please keep them coming. It was awesome to see Jayar on today, hope to see him more!!
I’m obsessed with this show. You need to do “The ken and barbie killers” Paul Bernardo & Karla Homolka. There’s a really good drama on netflix about it called “Karla” Keep up the good work grace.
oh yeah btw the actor Misha Collins plays Tom and Laura Prepon plays Karla!
I forgot all about this case. I had just started a new job and moved to a new place. I remember now. I followed it very closely at the time. I was glued to CNN every night until and after they got them.
Absolutely great episode and conversation on the mental capacities of both shooters. I enjoy the philosophical concepts which come into play, it’s difficult not to wonder if with proper treatment could the majority of mass murders be prevented.
I look forward to ever Murder With Friends episode.
*every