On one last note, I am glad with the rest of the comments pointing out the weaknesses in Ana’s anti-Castro rhetoric. Hopefully she reads this and educates herself more on the issue. She was being right wing on this issue.
When Hillary Dies, without exception, I know the right wing will celebrate it. I’ll bet Anna what ever she wants, that when Hillary dies, the right wing will celebrate it much like her new in-laws are celebrating Castros death. Castro was no saint, agreed. But that being said, I’m sadden to see how fast Anna has been indoctrinated by her new family. Can we really hate the right so much when our own so easily fall to family pressures as well? :(
Late to the game here, but the Cuba comments bothered me quite a bit: Cenk was definitely more fair with characterizing Castro as a gray area which is what all people are, and I appreciate trying to leave the all good/all bad arguments but really? Defending the large corporations and landowners that fleeced the country (like in ours) and saying you shouldn’t just take their ill-gotten gains away? Don’t kill/hurt them sure, but if there was injustice, don’t we try to right it?
But Ana making uninformed observations that aren’t supported by facts, was definitely bad. That’s what the mainstream media is for. Cuba has a better infant mortality rate that the US — NOW! not in the past according to the CIA world factbook (4.5 deaths per 1,000 compared to 5.8 deaths per 1,000 for the U.S.) Yes, in Cuba, you live a little shorter life (78.6 Cuba vs 79.8 US), but we spend WAY more on healthcare: (17.9% vs 8.6% GDP) and we are comparing a so-called first world country to a frickin’ third world country with a blockade, really!?
This is the second time recently where I’ve been annoyed about lack of context/research, first was with the NYU story where the context of why its so expensive there. The NY Times actually did a good job researching that fact that it lavishes so much money in compensation and perks on their administrative staff which on many colleges and universities are responsible for a lot of the bloat in school expenses. It really bothered me to not see that perspective shared when the story came up.
Guys, I wasn’t following the death of Castro so fervently and I am unaware, but weren’t there people weeping after his death, like they usually do after the passing of “our great leader. ” Or did that news never make it in US news? I am sincerely asking. You are better than any sources out there J
But don’t you see? Of course people who do not value the importance of money is inferior to them What can be more important than making big bucks and lots of it.
Native Americans values are some of the best values of any culture ever. They never even had any idea what money was until the oppressors arrived on their land. They understand even today that money is an out of date idea that must end for the human race to continue. The fact that they can and will say fuck your money white man makes them the superior race in my book.
I remain annoyed at Ana two days after this Post Game. She was frankly incendiary to me. She can be good on some analysis (clearly not in this PG), but she is NOT consistent. Moreover, I find her seemingly becoming increasingly ego-based, and I cringe and get angry at her frequent, repeated comment to “keep it light” which is extremely alarming, immature, and offensive given the state of the US and world. I do not watch TYT to “keep it light”. I am 49 and extremely concerned about the present and the future. Do not keep it fucking light!!!
Her comments re: Jimmy Dore reveal a major and seemingly increasing ego-based way of living on her part. Ana was so clearly annoyed when Cenk stated that Dore was the most talked about person on TYT when Cenk was back East recently. I am finding her increasingly insufferable which is a shame as I formerly liked her.
Dore is currently by far my favorite TYT person based on his convictions, reasoning skills, etc. My husband and I voted for Jill Stein largely due to his argument about trying to get the Greens to 5% for funding. (The fact that neither Cenk nor Ana mentioned the crucial 5% in this PG as well as in previous commentary irks me to no end.) My husband and I do not regret our decision to vote for Stein–in fact we are proud to have truly voted our conscience and not our fear– and are grateful to Jimmy for his passion as well as genuine concern and intellect.
Her comments re: Jill Stein were so off-base and frankly biased and pathetic, and many viewers addressed them well above so I won’t belabor the point other than to say that Ana for some reason despises Jill Stein and those of us who voted for her.
Finally, I want to comment that I feel strongly that certain people on TYT are NOT true progressives and seem more concerned with their egos than moving the country forward in a progressive direction. I am beyond frustrated with Ben, Michael, and of course now Ana. The people I feel who most represent what progressives are are Jimmy Dore, Steve Oh, Jayar, and usually Cenk. I would like to see TYT become truly “Too Strong” and not have these fissures of weakness.
Hey Cenk,
I thought you were an atheist. You just ended the post game 11/28 with “God Bless”. I’m confused? I am not against what you said, at all. I’m kind of new to membership and just want to know.
Cenk is an atheist. It’s just an expression he uses because it’s pervasive within our culture, and I’m guessing he’s being ironic. Don’t worry, you’re amongst secular friends :)
Sadly proves he may not know the difference. Because on many more occasions recently he has said agnostic. I had also hear him claim atheist before but with the amount of times he has said agnostic recently I assumed a change of heart. My bad? I don’t think so. His talk and actions are much more akin to agnosticism.
But to be fair I am very atheist and still say thank god and god bless but usually with a touch of irony.
The comments on cuba were horrible. No shit Cuba can’t get their prescriptions anymore, the united states has had a fucking blockade against them up until this year. Yes he lived at a higher standard than the people, almost every leader does. Yes you wouldn’t want to stay in cuba today (arguable) Cenk, because the blockade imposed by the united states has greatly limited its development.
Hey guys when you talked about Castro you forgot to talk about the US embargo and the numerous assassination attempts by the CIA. Next time it would be fair to mention those, just for the sake of telling the complete story. Nobody can deny that Castro was a dictator, but maybe the enormous pressure from the USA had some impact on his choices.
As for Jill Stein not electrifying people, you also forgot to mention that, unlike Bernie Sanders, Jill Stein did not run with the Democrats, that’s why she did not make it in the debates. Sanders gained name recognition by running with the Democrats and making it into the debates. This opportunity was completely denied to Jill Stein, so it does not seem fair to compare her to Bernie Sanders in terms of popularity.
By the way, I recently joined TYT and you guys are great. I listen to your shows every day and I am looking forward to getting more involved with the Wolf PAC.
How do you expect Jill Stein to “electrify” anyone when she got even less publicity from the duopoly-friendly media than Bernie Sanders?
And on the tweet, the exact text of the post read “Fidel Castro was a symbol of the struggle for justice in the shadow of empire. Presente!”
This isn’t praising his actions, and its not labeling him as a symbol of the CONCEPT of justice. Please read every word of something, they’re all important.
Damn Ana giving the same argument for families of police officers. Personal experience trumping historical and material realities. #SAD
Check out The Real News or TeleSur English for real analysis of global context and contribution of Castro and the Cuban Revolution and liberation of black and brown people the wold over.
@leroyjonesiii Ana is VERY GOOD when she knows the subject matter inside & out. And on those pieces she delivers the passion & fire & it lines right up. Righteous anger.
But when she DOESN’T know the subject matter, her passion & fire come off as outspoken foolishness.
The hopeful thing about Ana is that she DOES admit when she’s wrong & she knows she’s a work in progress.
If she learns more about a subject, she’ll be embarrassed at her prior views & will work to amend her conclusions.
That’s what gives me hope about her.
But man it’s hard to hear her when she’s wrong.
John Lucas
Oh totally! 1st: Ana is awesome and I love the fire she bring to topics. She is completely on point when it comes to education policy. I in no way want my criticism to be seen as a big deal, its not. Im not disappointed, angered or dissuaded from getting excited about see her take on more roles at TYT. 2nd: I hope that TYT opens up real dialogue about leftist ideals, leaders and impact in a nuanced and complicated way. 3rd: TYT already does that and Im so happy to be a member and a fan. Ana, if you read any of this you rock! Keep kicking ass!
“The hopeful thing about Ana is that she DOES admit when she’s wrong & she knows she’s a work in progress.
If she learns more about a subject, she’ll be embarrassed at her prior views & will work to amend her conclusions.
That’s what gives me hope about her.”
Yeah, see, that’s what I thought about her circa 2010. Since then, she’s grown progressively more stuck-up and haughty on every viewpoint she tries to represent, especially the ones she knows the least about.
Her holier-than-thou take on Jill Stein is laughable, but she feels the need to express it strongly and loudly because she voted for Stein 2012. and supported her as recently as early 2016. Now she needs to shout “Bad candidate! Baaad candidate!” to convince us as well as herself that she’s totally got it figured out this time. Because her husband’s family told her Castro was bad, m’kay, and whoever doesn’t demonize Castro can’t be a good candidate, m’kay. Except for Bernie, who she’s giving a pass on this! Shut up, trolls! She does know what she’s talking about! You all dis her just because she’s so much better than you! But send money anyway, it’s awesome that you support us, we love you guys!
i dont really understand ana’s point on the soviet contribution to cuba. yes, small states depend on larger states for funds. if you remove your top financial allies and place an embargo on a small state, it will reduce their ability to produce high quality social programs. plus, even today, the world sees cuban doctor’s international work as what we pretend usaid is.
castro is a hero for many people in the 3rd world, i have a very harsh leftist anarchist critique of him and che but that doesnt mean that millions (or more) of people dont consider him an important figure in resisting colonialism, a champion of self-determinism, and someone from a small island with very little resources in the heart of empire that was able to defy what most of the world’s population sees as the greatest threat to peace: the united states (according to world polling).
there was a reason that mainstream hero nelson mandela (who also should be critically examined) wanted to meet with castro immediately upon his release from prison, he was a critical figure in African independence struggles (again i have harsh criticisms for some of the tactics used there as well).
a final point, if you compare the governments of the 50s in latin america that the united states propped up and compare them to cuba, castro fared far better than any of his capitalist revial latin american countries and had to navigate under far more difficult conditions.
if the united states were to allow countries from central america or south america to enter into this country and earn citizenship, millions would immediately flock here. let alone what we do to people fleeing our violence in our hemisphere. haitians are a pretty good historical example. we not only deported them back to our death squad allies (papa and baby doc) but we locked them up in gitmo.
we must critically examine our leaders and historical figures in the way we criticize enemies of the state. 60 years into our revolution wasn’t that great for a large majority of people in our country and that was in far more strategically safe positions of geography than what cuba had to work with.
I disagree on both Stein and Castro. First, Jill Stein was the victim of an orchestrated campaign by the Clintonites and CTR, who immediately turned their rights on the Green Party as soon as the DNC was over.
Remember, the Clinton campaign was 110% sure that they would win if they got the nomination, so JOB 1 was to smear Bernie Sanders nd cheat him of the nomination.
Once they had secured the nomination, their next job was to eliminate or at least decimate the support for Stein. Again, their hubris knew no bounds, and they were sure that the only way they could possibly lose was if Jill Stein managed to “catch that wave” that Cenk mentioned. So …CTR and the rest of the Clinton Machine did everything they could to destroy what they perceived as their greatest threat — they sought to ensure that the Sanders supporters and other Progressives would not flock to her. You surely recall how the Clintonites pushed that ridiculous old meme about Ralph Nader and the 2000 election. They also used every means at their disposal to portray Stein as opportunistic, inauthentic and even crazy.
They obviously succeeded with Ana on 2 out of those 3 goals, and I am disappointed in Ana that she fell for that Clinton propaganda.
Regarding Castro: surely nothing did more to cause the suffering of the Cuban people than the US embargo. There were over 1000 assassination attempts on Fidel Castro; the CIA was constantly trying to destroy him and his government; the Bay of Pigs was just one example of the US’s attempts to do “regime change” in Cuba. Remember, interventionist wars, coups and engineered regime change was what the US and the CIA were doing all over the world, and certainly the sheer proximity of Cuba made it a target.
Castro rightly perceived the USA to be his arch-nemesis and mortal enemy – in the most literal and personal sense. Surely whatever security measures e undertook to root out spies, assassins and plotters can be seen as justified given the constant subversive, covert, overt and economic attacks under which he had to survive.
Bernie Sanders praised Castro’s ability to transform that society. Bernie also recognises the shortcomings of th Castro regime, but on balance, Cuba did much better over the past 60 years than did those LatAm and Caribbean countries that succumbed to the iron boot heel of United Fruit.
Elian gonzales became a national hero who Castro took a personal interest in. His father was given a good job and Elian went to Cuba’s top University and has an easier life than most Cubans. He was the symbol of Castro getting America to back down.
Ana has been brainwashed to be anti-Castro by her in laws. Castro was a tyrant but no Cuban exile will ever give him credit for doing anything good.
Despite economic and military opposition from the most powerful nation on earth, not to mention assassination attempts from the same giant despot nation next door, Castro survived and thrived for many many decades and died peacefully in his bed in his 90’s…
Pretty sure that means he won.
What exactly are the anti-Castro folks celebrating? That he did not live forever?
I was the member who sent the compliment to Ana, and just to clarify, I *do* have a daughter (she’s four) and Ana is the type of woman I hope my own daughter grows up to be. Fierce, intelligent, passionate, and unapologetic, while also full of empathy and compassion. Once she’s old enough, you better believe my little girl will be watching along with me – please believe me!
“Jill Stein is inauthentic.” … while being the only politician raising money for a recount. Then, Ana accuses Jill Stein of doing it for selfish reasons. ie… “Stein wants to remove some of the blame off of herself.” Its Ana’s desperate grasping at straws that comes of as petty. Petty Fucking Crocker!
@RedMinus Not surprising considering who she’s married to.
Miami Cubans are Fulgencio Bautista’s Cubans—the Wealthy Elite Cubans who were dethroned in Fidel’s Revolution & many of them RESENT Castro for challenging the vastly unequal society they enjoyed under Fulgencio.
Both Castro AND Bautista were dictators but Castro at least tried to dictate a fairer society.
The American embargo on Cuba is what crippled their economy. Not Castro’s Revolution.
Castro protected Cuba from the Austerity Freaks that try to bulldoze so many governments around the world.
Castro protected Cuba from the Exploitative Capitalists that set up puppet governments & banana republics to funnel the resources away from the people of the country & into the exploiters’ pockets.
THAT’S why Castro is hated in mainstream American media (financed by those Austerity-minded Exploiters).
THAT’S why Castro is hated by Miami Cubans who fled a rightful Revolution.
It’s like America having a Revolution today & you hear Ivanka Trump & the Bush daughters whining in Canada about how unjustly their families had it in America years later.
Ask Black folks in Miami about the Cubans & you’ll hear a WHOLE DIFFERENT answer than you’ll hear from the mainstream.
The younger Miami Cubans are starting to change their views slowly as they begin identifying more with the U.S. than Cuba since they never lived in Cuba.
But the tales passed down by their parents & grandparents still hold a lot of sway so they’ll tend to parrot what their families have told them from the crib to the college.
You GOTTA credit Fidel for somehow giving people in Cuba Universal Health Care WHILE under decades of embargo from the United States.
If he can do that under the financial constrictions of an embargo, how come America can’t do it with all the freedom in the world?
We have to question why our media makes certain world figures “Bad Guys”.
Why was Hugo Chavez so bad REALLY?
Why was Muammar Ghaddafi so bad REALLY?
Why was Fidel Castro so bad REALLY?
Is it REALLY just because they were dictators? Rulers without real elections?
If they are so bad then why isn’t China so bad?
Why isn’t Saudi Arabia so bad?
Why isn’t the United Kingdom so bad?
Why are these ones bad but those ones are not?
You think it might have something to do with the Predatory Business Class & the Military-Industrial Complex that prop that class up?
John Lucas
I think being relieved that Castro is dead is normal for some Cubans. Celebrating the death of any human on the other hand is quite hard and in my opinion inhumane. I figured that out the hard way the night Osama bin Laden died.
You’re both honest and open; and that’s why im proud to be a lo g time member; however, this was nearly nauseating to listen to.
Cenks intelligent, but self admittedly; long ago, unknowledgeable of Marxism. He even refused to read beyond its critics. Sorry Cenk, but you openly balk at even learning about it.
Ana.. yea, I’m just to upset to say more than you sounded more Miami Exile, less AK-47. Sorry, but those old men literally Alpha66 target my life for being against Posada. If that makes me biased; I’m only human.
As to the Jill Stein analysis..I won’t even go there.
It blows my mind how much people blindly trust the multi-billion dollar pharma companies. Vaccines are needed for sure, but don’t think for one damn minute that they are creating new vaccinations and putting millions into them because they are generally worried about the health of the united states….
A few mild corrections and additional thoughts. In terms of Castro we definitely have to be honest and keep it real, the dude was a dictator. He did horrendous things during his reign. But he also did some good. Cuba has managed to completely obliterate parent to child transmission of HIV for example. Cuba also has a 99% literacy rate. I can bring up a few other examples of good he did, but let’s be honest the dude was a dictator. Life is complicated, and we need to recognize both the atrocities he committed and the good he did bring to Cuba. Ana’s point about Jill Stein is valid and I can see her view, but I disagree. At least in terms of policy she earned my vote. And finally, slight correction to Cenk’s point about communism. Socialism in its purest form, or communism, can only work on a small scale, like a village. There is a very good reason communism and community share a root. For people to put aside their own self-interest as much as they need to in a communistic system, they need to have some kind of bond with the people for whom they are denying their self-interest. The Israeli kibbutzim for example originally functioned under true communism and they flourished. However, once you get much bigger than a few hundred people, communism starts to break down. It is certainly not a viable economic system for an entire country unless that country is a teeny tiny island in the pacific.
“Its not viable for an entire country” is a gross simplification of it. Could it not work under a confederation of small communities under a larger “state”?
I think it’s totally possible that the Clinton campaign put Jill Stein up to the vote recount and is bankrolling the whole operation. The Clinton campaign would want to do it, but it would seem sad and desperate on their part. I’m sure they’ve still got lots of cash still kicking around, even for a small outside chance.
Ana, understand that Christian’s family (and any Cuban-Americans really) are going to be a self-selecting group and against Castro. Which is not to say that they don’t have some truth to their complaints, but don’t take them perfectly at their word either.
Ana, “there were no good choices.” Kasparian. Jill Stein was fucking amazing. I listened to every word I heard her speak. Fidel Castro lead a revolution. Keep perspective. The Green New Deal. She is a revolutionist. So is Bernie Sanders. Bernie mouthed faithless electors during the DNC voting. I agree with your argument on Castro, Ana. National Holiday for Cuba. I find it super ironic that Trump ran as the “law and order” candidate. Cenk, is right 99/100 Times, Uygur. “There will be three people of the debate stage.”
“The Cuban people hold a special place in the hearts of the people of Africa. The Cuban internationalists have made a contribution to African independence, freedom and justice unparalleled for its principled and selfless character – We in Africa are used to being victims of countries wanting to carve up our territory or subvert our sovereignty. It is unparalleled in African history to have another people rise to the defence of one of us – The defeat of the apartheid army was an inspiration to the struggling people in South Africa! Without the defeat of Cuito Cuanavale our organizations would not have been unbanned! The defeat of the racist army at Cuito Cuanavale has made it possible for me to be here today! Cuito Cuanavale was a milestone in the history of the struggle for southern African liberation!”
Nelson Mandela, January 26th, 1991. First President of Free South Africa
Ana’s point reminds me of when I was in grade 8 and I debated my religion teacher on the historic value of Che. He’s done so terrible things, great man overall.
Che has also never knowingly targeted innocent people. So the talks about how he has done terrible things makes no more sense than talking about, say, Lincoln doing terrible things since in the war he has waged against the South countless innocent lives were lost (which is inevitable in any war, even if it would be headed by a most saint person ever).
Sorry Anna but I think you should reevaluate your position on Castro. I don’t think Cuba is a model for socialism (full disclosure I’m to the left of Castro) however I think you’re US context has informed a grossly incomplete impression of the Cuban Revolution.
1) Fidel Castro was instrumental if not the single greatest reason for the fall of Apartheid in South Africa. The battle of Cuito Cuanavale broke the back of the SA military, liberating Namibia, ending the invasion of Angola and forcing the White Supremacist government to negotiate with the ANC. Nelson Mandela himself acknowledges how important Fidel was to this. The liberation of most of Southern Africa from white supremacist rule is a higher achievement for freedom then I know of any sitting world leader. You can disagree with state socialism (and I do) and be real this was an enormous benefit to humanity. The reaction to his death in Africa or in Harlem (where he was greeted by thousands of African supporters) is very different the it is in Miami for a very good reason.
2) living standards: before the revolution Cuba was a poor, illiterate and under industrialized Casino for the mafia and foreign corporations. It is irrational to compare it’s standard of living to the US. But compared to the examples of comparable capitalistcountries in Central, South America and the Caribbean, it is among the highest. No one does of starvation in Cuba, no one is homeless, some level of healthcare exists, student teacher ratios are 10:1 and illiteracy has been irradicated. A tiny poor nation, it has developed 2 functional cancer vaccines (something 1st world nations struggle to do). In real world terms, while thousands die needlessly from hardship every year in comparable capitalist nations like Haiti, Honduras, Dominican Republic, Mexico, these needless deaths don’t happen in Cuba. That is a gigantic achievement.
3) LGBT rights: Cuba legalized homosexuality in 1979, the US did in 2002. Cuba offers free transitional surgery and hormones to the trans community; the US never has. Cuban has the lowest transmission rate of HIV (in 2016 it was declared to have effectively eradicated the virus on the island) through an intensive program of treatment unseen in the rest of the world, while the US for the entirely of the 80s ignored the pleas of the LGBT community leading to thousands of needless deaths. Cuba did have for less then 2 years labor camps for homosexuals in the mid 60s, that were abolished by Castro himself after he entered them in hiding and witnessed them firsthand. At the same time the US allowed for lobotomy of homosexuals and chemical castration, along with brutal treatment and murder by police.
4) Human Rights; Cuba has a terrible Human Rights record, nowhere near that of most US supported governments today, but horrible. Here’s the thing, we excuse our governments war crimes as somehow not on the same level instinctively as those of other, poorer nations. “American excpectionalism” makes our use of torture a police debate but others a war crime, our brutal, at times deadly treatment of protesters as incidental and others innexcusable. Cuba has political prisoners, the US has political prisoners (who occasionally die in prison by beatings from guards, starvation, being burned alive, for crimes they did not commit) from Mumia and Leonard Peltier to Chelsea Manning and others. Cuba’s treatment of the Ladies in White is deplorable. The US treatment of Occupy and NDAPL protesters is far worse and potentially deadly (freezing protesters and shooting off limbs hasn’t happened in Cuba).
5) the Firing squads of 1961
Probably the biggest stain on Fidel. A brutal crime carried out by the state. But if the standard for a repugnant government is no consequences for the state and brutality, then apply it equally and not selectively. At roughly the same time as thousands of mostly Batista torturers and informants were killed along with I’m sure hundreds of innocent civilians, the US has carried out operation Wet Back, the forced deportation of Mexican workers into often desert areas of Mexico. It’s estimated between hundreds to thousands of Mexicans died as a result. All innocent workers. Up until the 1960s, hudrends of union activists had been killed by the state and militia groups supported by police in the US, in fact we have the bloodiest labor rights history in the western 1st world. All of this carried out with complete impunity by the state. My point isnt to say because we carry out Human Rights abuses regularly it cancels out Cuba’s, which would be a logical fallacy, it’s to say, that, be ethically consistent, our government has been and is to this day brutal, and disregards Human Rights, and yet you can look at the achievements we’ve carried out.
Because of Fidel, Apartheid was crushed and South Africa liberated, hundreds of thousand of Cubans that would have otherwise died lived because of the relative to Latin America & carribean capitalist nations, high standards to the basic (and beyond) needs of human beings. In actual terms, real world terms, these are massive achievements.
And you can still disagree with nationalism and state socialism (‘state capitalism’ as Lemon put it in State and Revolution) and dictatorship, as I do.
Ana is wrong both on Castro and Stein, she went full right-wing on this:
1. There is no evidence that Castro has ordered to kill innocent people, ever. Ana confuses Cold War era propaganda with reality. Castro has made a revolution and during the turmoil, of course, some people might be caught up, and yes, die unnecessary (and some are deceiving themselves and others on the innocence of their relatives), but it is a totally different thing from intentionally trying to kill innocent people. Some innocent people were killed, for example, in American Revolution of 1970s, and yet I am not hearing Ana calling the revolutionaries “horrible people”.
2. Castro has never forced the Cuban elites that have ravaged the country, benefiting from Batista’s dictatorship, and pro-fascists ideologues to flee; it is their choice. Some progressive rich families have stayed in the country and were glad to invest their riches to create one of the best healthcare and educations system in the world. Ana also says that the revolution has resulted in Castro getting what was right for him, not for people, but Castro was altruist and idealist that has never enriched himself, was selfless person.
3. Castro is a totally symbol of justice literally for billions of people around the world, it is undeniable. And countless world leaders, including “progressive” ones like Canada’s, were hailing Castro and his legacy, not just Stein. Why Ana single-out Stein?
4. Cuba’s healthcare is still by far better (as per international rankings) than what happens in the world for all the years after the USSR has fell apart, with no subsidies whatsoever. The educational system is still one of the best systems in the world, also no subsidies. I am personally not a communist, but I have to admit that Cuba’s GDP per capita is among the top globally at all, but it is a way above almost all “free” capitalist countries in Latin America, so Cuba’s system works much better than your average capitalist system (bar the golden billion countries that thrive on the legacy of imperialism and their colonial past where they parasites on other countries for hundreds of years), it is a FACT. And all of it while Cuba was under the blockade all this time (what Ana forgets), while those other countries are not.
5. There is nothing opportunistic about Stein’s platform: she literally says the same things for decades already, not unlike Bernard Sanders. Besides, Ana is saying that Stein’s heart was in the right place and yet she seemed unauthentic; how it is possible?
6. Stein never played “both sides” on vaccinations. She has made scientifically accurate statements on the issue, never claimed any connection of vaccination with autism.
Cenk says Jill Stein was not an electrifying candidate, but there is no way to know since is always was in a almost complete media blockade and never allowed to debate. Cenk forgetting this fact amazes me. And thinking that Castro was by far a good force is a mainstream progressive position that even many young generation Cuban immigrants do not are not so angry about versus older generation. The fact that more older Cuban immigrants also support Trump is no wonder since they also supported a real fascist Batista.
Anguiru55 and dDErss, yes! There was a lot of ignorance spewed during this Post Game.
To Cenk I would say, what about the deal-breakers during the American revolution? Do you agree with taking away “landowners” property because they were British loyalists? Our revolution was righteous but Cuba’s was not?!
Wikipedia has a fair write down on the firing squads:
Hundreds of Batista-era agents, policemen and soldiers were put on public trial, accused of human rights abuses, war crimes, murder, and torture. Most of the accused people were convicted of political crimes by revolutionary tribunals and then executed by firing squad; others received long sentences of imprisonment. A notable example of revolutionary justice occurred after the capture of Santiago, where Raúl Castro directed the execution of more than seventy Batista POWs.[48] For his part in taking Havana, Che Guevara was appointed supreme prosecutor in La Cabaña Fortress. This was part of a large-scale attempt by Fidel Castro to cleanse the security forces of Batista loyalists and potential opponents of the new revolutionary government. Though many were killed or imprisoned, others were fortunate enough to be dismissed from the army and police without prosecution, and some high-ranking officials of the Batista administration were exiled as military attachés.[48] Scholars generally agree that those executed were probably guilty, but the trials did not follow due process.[49]
The lack of due process is, obviously, is horrible, but if you compare the results of this to what “nice guy” Obama does by killing thousands with his drone strikes, which, unlike with Castro’s firing squads, were not even guilty in more than 90% of cases, Castro was an amazingly mild and restrained humanist even in this case. There was a hardly milder way to protect the country for a fascist coup that CIA was preparing that would certainly call thousands of deaths of actually innocent people.
*There was a hardly milder way to protect the country from a fascist coup that CIA was preparing that would certainly cause thousands of deaths of actually innocent people.
Really interesting post game guys! I agree with Ana on Jill Stein seeming inauthentic. I have a hard time respecting someone who entertains conspiracy theories.
As a progressive cuban, it means so much to me that you two took a historically nuanced route. I’ve had so many arguments in the past few days with “progressives” who change their profile pictures to Castro and hashtag commandante bullshit when they don’t know anything about cuba’s history. The oppression of human rights should always be a dealbreaker. Ana, you’re truly a badass. I wish the world had more critically reflexive people like you.
Well said. I truly don’t understand how people I agree with on everything can be so wrong about Castro. Last I checked, Hitler rebuilt the autobahn and led Germany out of the Great Depression but we don’t mention his accomplishments for obvious reasons.
Comparing a man who committed genocide to a man leading a revolution is insanely stupid. Was George Washington the worst man that ever lived because of his involvement in the American Revolution? Is John Adams horrible for signing the Alien and Sedition Acts? Post revolution Cuba was a LOT like post revolution America. Things tend to get a bit more authoritarian the first few years after a revolution. It’s the case almost anywhere, anytime.
The first few years??!! This is a man who until his death refused human rights organizations to investigate conditions on the island. He jailed journalists and critics of his government. A blood thirsty dictator who killed nearly 4,000 people and disappeared many more using a firing squad. Also, George Washington stepped down as President after 2-terms during a time we had no term limits. What’s insanely stupid is comparing a jack-booted thug to George Washington.
Comments
On one last note, I am glad with the rest of the comments pointing out the weaknesses in Ana’s anti-Castro rhetoric. Hopefully she reads this and educates herself more on the issue. She was being right wing on this issue.
I knew it, Ana got all this anti-Castro sentiments from her husband’s conservative Cuban family. Definitely bias.
Ana should educate herself more about Fidel Castro, Cuba, and US Imperialism.
Rebel HQ is over at AP with Jimmy Dore!! Ciao!
@eiredusk 100% Agree!
When Hillary Dies, without exception, I know the right wing will celebrate it. I’ll bet Anna what ever she wants, that when Hillary dies, the right wing will celebrate it much like her new in-laws are celebrating Castros death. Castro was no saint, agreed. But that being said, I’m sadden to see how fast Anna has been indoctrinated by her new family. Can we really hate the right so much when our own so easily fall to family pressures as well? :(
Late to the game here, but the Cuba comments bothered me quite a bit: Cenk was definitely more fair with characterizing Castro as a gray area which is what all people are, and I appreciate trying to leave the all good/all bad arguments but really? Defending the large corporations and landowners that fleeced the country (like in ours) and saying you shouldn’t just take their ill-gotten gains away? Don’t kill/hurt them sure, but if there was injustice, don’t we try to right it?
But Ana making uninformed observations that aren’t supported by facts, was definitely bad. That’s what the mainstream media is for. Cuba has a better infant mortality rate that the US — NOW! not in the past according to the CIA world factbook (4.5 deaths per 1,000 compared to 5.8 deaths per 1,000 for the U.S.) Yes, in Cuba, you live a little shorter life (78.6 Cuba vs 79.8 US), but we spend WAY more on healthcare: (17.9% vs 8.6% GDP) and we are comparing a so-called first world country to a frickin’ third world country with a blockade, really!?
This is the second time recently where I’ve been annoyed about lack of context/research, first was with the NYU story where the context of why its so expensive there. The NY Times actually did a good job researching that fact that it lavishes so much money in compensation and perks on their administrative staff which on many colleges and universities are responsible for a lot of the bloat in school expenses. It really bothered me to not see that perspective shared when the story came up.
Guys, I wasn’t following the death of Castro so fervently and I am unaware, but weren’t there people weeping after his death, like they usually do after the passing of “our great leader. ” Or did that news never make it in US news? I am sincerely asking. You are better than any sources out there J
But don’t you see? Of course people who do not value the importance of money is inferior to them What can be more important than making big bucks and lots of it.
Native Americans values are some of the best values of any culture ever. They never even had any idea what money was until the oppressors arrived on their land. They understand even today that money is an out of date idea that must end for the human race to continue. The fact that they can and will say fuck your money white man makes them the superior race in my book.
I remain annoyed at Ana two days after this Post Game. She was frankly incendiary to me. She can be good on some analysis (clearly not in this PG), but she is NOT consistent. Moreover, I find her seemingly becoming increasingly ego-based, and I cringe and get angry at her frequent, repeated comment to “keep it light” which is extremely alarming, immature, and offensive given the state of the US and world. I do not watch TYT to “keep it light”. I am 49 and extremely concerned about the present and the future. Do not keep it fucking light!!!
Her comments re: Jimmy Dore reveal a major and seemingly increasing ego-based way of living on her part. Ana was so clearly annoyed when Cenk stated that Dore was the most talked about person on TYT when Cenk was back East recently. I am finding her increasingly insufferable which is a shame as I formerly liked her.
Dore is currently by far my favorite TYT person based on his convictions, reasoning skills, etc. My husband and I voted for Jill Stein largely due to his argument about trying to get the Greens to 5% for funding. (The fact that neither Cenk nor Ana mentioned the crucial 5% in this PG as well as in previous commentary irks me to no end.) My husband and I do not regret our decision to vote for Stein–in fact we are proud to have truly voted our conscience and not our fear– and are grateful to Jimmy for his passion as well as genuine concern and intellect.
Her comments re: Jill Stein were so off-base and frankly biased and pathetic, and many viewers addressed them well above so I won’t belabor the point other than to say that Ana for some reason despises Jill Stein and those of us who voted for her.
Finally, I want to comment that I feel strongly that certain people on TYT are NOT true progressives and seem more concerned with their egos than moving the country forward in a progressive direction. I am beyond frustrated with Ben, Michael, and of course now Ana. The people I feel who most represent what progressives are are Jimmy Dore, Steve Oh, Jayar, and usually Cenk. I would like to see TYT become truly “Too Strong” and not have these fissures of weakness.
Agreed!
Hey Cenk,
I thought you were an atheist. You just ended the post game 11/28 with “God Bless”. I’m confused? I am not against what you said, at all. I’m kind of new to membership and just want to know.
Cenk has always done that, I know it’s strange but it’s kind of his thing.
Cenk is an atheist. It’s just an expression he uses because it’s pervasive within our culture, and I’m guessing he’s being ironic. Don’t worry, you’re amongst secular friends :)
Cenk is agnostic very big difference
That may be true but I heard him say that he was an atheist yesterday.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDvMOuxTi7k
Look at the 3-minute mark.
Sadly proves he may not know the difference. Because on many more occasions recently he has said agnostic. I had also hear him claim atheist before but with the amount of times he has said agnostic recently I assumed a change of heart. My bad? I don’t think so. His talk and actions are much more akin to agnosticism.
But to be fair I am very atheist and still say thank god and god bless but usually with a touch of irony.
There’s a difference but you can be both, and Cenk is both. In fact, basically all atheists are also agnostics.
The comments on cuba were horrible. No shit Cuba can’t get their prescriptions anymore, the united states has had a fucking blockade against them up until this year. Yes he lived at a higher standard than the people, almost every leader does. Yes you wouldn’t want to stay in cuba today (arguable) Cenk, because the blockade imposed by the united states has greatly limited its development.
Hey guys when you talked about Castro you forgot to talk about the US embargo and the numerous assassination attempts by the CIA. Next time it would be fair to mention those, just for the sake of telling the complete story. Nobody can deny that Castro was a dictator, but maybe the enormous pressure from the USA had some impact on his choices.
As for Jill Stein not electrifying people, you also forgot to mention that, unlike Bernie Sanders, Jill Stein did not run with the Democrats, that’s why she did not make it in the debates. Sanders gained name recognition by running with the Democrats and making it into the debates. This opportunity was completely denied to Jill Stein, so it does not seem fair to compare her to Bernie Sanders in terms of popularity.
By the way, I recently joined TYT and you guys are great. I listen to your shows every day and I am looking forward to getting more involved with the Wolf PAC.
Castro sounds like Trump.
How do you expect Jill Stein to “electrify” anyone when she got even less publicity from the duopoly-friendly media than Bernie Sanders?
And on the tweet, the exact text of the post read “Fidel Castro was a symbol of the struggle for justice in the shadow of empire. Presente!”
This isn’t praising his actions, and its not labeling him as a symbol of the CONCEPT of justice. Please read every word of something, they’re all important.
Damn Ana giving the same argument for families of police officers. Personal experience trumping historical and material realities. #SAD
Check out The Real News or TeleSur English for real analysis of global context and contribution of Castro and the Cuban Revolution and liberation of black and brown people the wold over.
I wanted to say the same thing, but you said it better. Ana needs more education on geopolitics.
@leroyjonesiii Ana is VERY GOOD when she knows the subject matter inside & out. And on those pieces she delivers the passion & fire & it lines right up. Righteous anger.
But when she DOESN’T know the subject matter, her passion & fire come off as outspoken foolishness.
The hopeful thing about Ana is that she DOES admit when she’s wrong & she knows she’s a work in progress.
If she learns more about a subject, she’ll be embarrassed at her prior views & will work to amend her conclusions.
That’s what gives me hope about her.
But man it’s hard to hear her when she’s wrong.
John Lucas
Oh totally! 1st: Ana is awesome and I love the fire she bring to topics. She is completely on point when it comes to education policy. I in no way want my criticism to be seen as a big deal, its not. Im not disappointed, angered or dissuaded from getting excited about see her take on more roles at TYT. 2nd: I hope that TYT opens up real dialogue about leftist ideals, leaders and impact in a nuanced and complicated way. 3rd: TYT already does that and Im so happy to be a member and a fan. Ana, if you read any of this you rock! Keep kicking ass!
“The hopeful thing about Ana is that she DOES admit when she’s wrong & she knows she’s a work in progress.
If she learns more about a subject, she’ll be embarrassed at her prior views & will work to amend her conclusions.
That’s what gives me hope about her.”
Yeah, see, that’s what I thought about her circa 2010. Since then, she’s grown progressively more stuck-up and haughty on every viewpoint she tries to represent, especially the ones she knows the least about.
Her holier-than-thou take on Jill Stein is laughable, but she feels the need to express it strongly and loudly because she voted for Stein 2012. and supported her as recently as early 2016. Now she needs to shout “Bad candidate! Baaad candidate!” to convince us as well as herself that she’s totally got it figured out this time. Because her husband’s family told her Castro was bad, m’kay, and whoever doesn’t demonize Castro can’t be a good candidate, m’kay. Except for Bernie, who she’s giving a pass on this! Shut up, trolls! She does know what she’s talking about! You all dis her just because she’s so much better than you! But send money anyway, it’s awesome that you support us, we love you guys!
As some would say, she’s a mess.
Ana’s ignorance made the end of the video unwatchable :(
i dont really understand ana’s point on the soviet contribution to cuba. yes, small states depend on larger states for funds. if you remove your top financial allies and place an embargo on a small state, it will reduce their ability to produce high quality social programs. plus, even today, the world sees cuban doctor’s international work as what we pretend usaid is.
castro is a hero for many people in the 3rd world, i have a very harsh leftist anarchist critique of him and che but that doesnt mean that millions (or more) of people dont consider him an important figure in resisting colonialism, a champion of self-determinism, and someone from a small island with very little resources in the heart of empire that was able to defy what most of the world’s population sees as the greatest threat to peace: the united states (according to world polling).
there was a reason that mainstream hero nelson mandela (who also should be critically examined) wanted to meet with castro immediately upon his release from prison, he was a critical figure in African independence struggles (again i have harsh criticisms for some of the tactics used there as well).
a final point, if you compare the governments of the 50s in latin america that the united states propped up and compare them to cuba, castro fared far better than any of his capitalist revial latin american countries and had to navigate under far more difficult conditions.
if the united states were to allow countries from central america or south america to enter into this country and earn citizenship, millions would immediately flock here. let alone what we do to people fleeing our violence in our hemisphere. haitians are a pretty good historical example. we not only deported them back to our death squad allies (papa and baby doc) but we locked them up in gitmo.
we must critically examine our leaders and historical figures in the way we criticize enemies of the state. 60 years into our revolution wasn’t that great for a large majority of people in our country and that was in far more strategically safe positions of geography than what cuba had to work with.
I disagree on both Stein and Castro. First, Jill Stein was the victim of an orchestrated campaign by the Clintonites and CTR, who immediately turned their rights on the Green Party as soon as the DNC was over.
Remember, the Clinton campaign was 110% sure that they would win if they got the nomination, so JOB 1 was to smear Bernie Sanders nd cheat him of the nomination.
Once they had secured the nomination, their next job was to eliminate or at least decimate the support for Stein. Again, their hubris knew no bounds, and they were sure that the only way they could possibly lose was if Jill Stein managed to “catch that wave” that Cenk mentioned. So …CTR and the rest of the Clinton Machine did everything they could to destroy what they perceived as their greatest threat — they sought to ensure that the Sanders supporters and other Progressives would not flock to her. You surely recall how the Clintonites pushed that ridiculous old meme about Ralph Nader and the 2000 election. They also used every means at their disposal to portray Stein as opportunistic, inauthentic and even crazy.
They obviously succeeded with Ana on 2 out of those 3 goals, and I am disappointed in Ana that she fell for that Clinton propaganda.
Regarding Castro: surely nothing did more to cause the suffering of the Cuban people than the US embargo. There were over 1000 assassination attempts on Fidel Castro; the CIA was constantly trying to destroy him and his government; the Bay of Pigs was just one example of the US’s attempts to do “regime change” in Cuba. Remember, interventionist wars, coups and engineered regime change was what the US and the CIA were doing all over the world, and certainly the sheer proximity of Cuba made it a target.
Castro rightly perceived the USA to be his arch-nemesis and mortal enemy – in the most literal and personal sense. Surely whatever security measures e undertook to root out spies, assassins and plotters can be seen as justified given the constant subversive, covert, overt and economic attacks under which he had to survive.
Bernie Sanders praised Castro’s ability to transform that society. Bernie also recognises the shortcomings of th Castro regime, but on balance, Cuba did much better over the past 60 years than did those LatAm and Caribbean countries that succumbed to the iron boot heel of United Fruit.
wow Ana. wow.
Everything I hear from Ana going forward will be taken with a grain of salt.
wow Anna. wow.
I still want to know whatever happened to Elian Gonzales…
Elian gonzales became a national hero who Castro took a personal interest in. His father was given a good job and Elian went to Cuba’s top University and has an easier life than most Cubans. He was the symbol of Castro getting America to back down.
Ana has been brainwashed to be anti-Castro by her in laws. Castro was a tyrant but no Cuban exile will ever give him credit for doing anything good.
Despite economic and military opposition from the most powerful nation on earth, not to mention assassination attempts from the same giant despot nation next door, Castro survived and thrived for many many decades and died peacefully in his bed in his 90’s…
Pretty sure that means he won.
What exactly are the anti-Castro folks celebrating? That he did not live forever?
I was the member who sent the compliment to Ana, and just to clarify, I *do* have a daughter (she’s four) and Ana is the type of woman I hope my own daughter grows up to be. Fierce, intelligent, passionate, and unapologetic, while also full of empathy and compassion. Once she’s old enough, you better believe my little girl will be watching along with me – please believe me!
“Jill Stein is inauthentic.” … while being the only politician raising money for a recount. Then, Ana accuses Jill Stein of doing it for selfish reasons. ie… “Stein wants to remove some of the blame off of herself.” Its Ana’s desperate grasping at straws that comes of as petty. Petty Fucking Crocker!
lmao Ana got them Cuban blinders on. Giddyup
@RedMinus Not surprising considering who she’s married to.
Miami Cubans are Fulgencio Bautista’s Cubans—the Wealthy Elite Cubans who were dethroned in Fidel’s Revolution & many of them RESENT Castro for challenging the vastly unequal society they enjoyed under Fulgencio.
Both Castro AND Bautista were dictators but Castro at least tried to dictate a fairer society.
The American embargo on Cuba is what crippled their economy. Not Castro’s Revolution.
Castro protected Cuba from the Austerity Freaks that try to bulldoze so many governments around the world.
Castro protected Cuba from the Exploitative Capitalists that set up puppet governments & banana republics to funnel the resources away from the people of the country & into the exploiters’ pockets.
THAT’S why Castro is hated in mainstream American media (financed by those Austerity-minded Exploiters).
THAT’S why Castro is hated by Miami Cubans who fled a rightful Revolution.
It’s like America having a Revolution today & you hear Ivanka Trump & the Bush daughters whining in Canada about how unjustly their families had it in America years later.
Ask Black folks in Miami about the Cubans & you’ll hear a WHOLE DIFFERENT answer than you’ll hear from the mainstream.
The younger Miami Cubans are starting to change their views slowly as they begin identifying more with the U.S. than Cuba since they never lived in Cuba.
But the tales passed down by their parents & grandparents still hold a lot of sway so they’ll tend to parrot what their families have told them from the crib to the college.
You GOTTA credit Fidel for somehow giving people in Cuba Universal Health Care WHILE under decades of embargo from the United States.
If he can do that under the financial constrictions of an embargo, how come America can’t do it with all the freedom in the world?
We have to question why our media makes certain world figures “Bad Guys”.
Why was Hugo Chavez so bad REALLY?
Why was Muammar Ghaddafi so bad REALLY?
Why was Fidel Castro so bad REALLY?
Is it REALLY just because they were dictators? Rulers without real elections?
If they are so bad then why isn’t China so bad?
Why isn’t Saudi Arabia so bad?
Why isn’t the United Kingdom so bad?
Why are these ones bad but those ones are not?
You think it might have something to do with the Predatory Business Class & the Military-Industrial Complex that prop that class up?
John Lucas
At the end, when Cenk made that gesture and said ” And that’s the whole picture” It sounded like an analytic segment.
I think being relieved that Castro is dead is normal for some Cubans. Celebrating the death of any human on the other hand is quite hard and in my opinion inhumane. I figured that out the hard way the night Osama bin Laden died.
Inauthentic? Ana Voted Hillary..so, Thank you for Trump Ana. I didn’t, so I can say that. I voted principle. The nose pinchers gave us Trump.
Voting for Hillary gave us Trump? I’d like to hear you explain that.
You’re both honest and open; and that’s why im proud to be a lo g time member; however, this was nearly nauseating to listen to.
Cenks intelligent, but self admittedly; long ago, unknowledgeable of Marxism. He even refused to read beyond its critics. Sorry Cenk, but you openly balk at even learning about it.
Ana.. yea, I’m just to upset to say more than you sounded more Miami Exile, less AK-47. Sorry, but those old men literally Alpha66 target my life for being against Posada. If that makes me biased; I’m only human.
As to the Jill Stein analysis..I won’t even go there.
It blows my mind how much people blindly trust the multi-billion dollar pharma companies. Vaccines are needed for sure, but don’t think for one damn minute that they are creating new vaccinations and putting millions into them because they are generally worried about the health of the united states….
A few mild corrections and additional thoughts. In terms of Castro we definitely have to be honest and keep it real, the dude was a dictator. He did horrendous things during his reign. But he also did some good. Cuba has managed to completely obliterate parent to child transmission of HIV for example. Cuba also has a 99% literacy rate. I can bring up a few other examples of good he did, but let’s be honest the dude was a dictator. Life is complicated, and we need to recognize both the atrocities he committed and the good he did bring to Cuba. Ana’s point about Jill Stein is valid and I can see her view, but I disagree. At least in terms of policy she earned my vote. And finally, slight correction to Cenk’s point about communism. Socialism in its purest form, or communism, can only work on a small scale, like a village. There is a very good reason communism and community share a root. For people to put aside their own self-interest as much as they need to in a communistic system, they need to have some kind of bond with the people for whom they are denying their self-interest. The Israeli kibbutzim for example originally functioned under true communism and they flourished. However, once you get much bigger than a few hundred people, communism starts to break down. It is certainly not a viable economic system for an entire country unless that country is a teeny tiny island in the pacific.
“Life is complicated, and we need to recognize both the atrocities he committed and the good he did bring to Cuba”
It’s not that complicated if you ask the nearly 2 million Cubans living in Florida.
“Its not viable for an entire country” is a gross simplification of it. Could it not work under a confederation of small communities under a larger “state”?
I think it’s totally possible that the Clinton campaign put Jill Stein up to the vote recount and is bankrolling the whole operation. The Clinton campaign would want to do it, but it would seem sad and desperate on their part. I’m sure they’ve still got lots of cash still kicking around, even for a small outside chance.
Ana, understand that Christian’s family (and any Cuban-Americans really) are going to be a self-selecting group and against Castro. Which is not to say that they don’t have some truth to their complaints, but don’t take them perfectly at their word either.
Ana, “there were no good choices.” Kasparian. Jill Stein was fucking amazing. I listened to every word I heard her speak. Fidel Castro lead a revolution. Keep perspective. The Green New Deal. She is a revolutionist. So is Bernie Sanders. Bernie mouthed faithless electors during the DNC voting. I agree with your argument on Castro, Ana. National Holiday for Cuba. I find it super ironic that Trump ran as the “law and order” candidate. Cenk, is right 99/100 Times, Uygur. “There will be three people of the debate stage.”
“The Cuban people hold a special place in the hearts of the people of Africa. The Cuban internationalists have made a contribution to African independence, freedom and justice unparalleled for its principled and selfless character – We in Africa are used to being victims of countries wanting to carve up our territory or subvert our sovereignty. It is unparalleled in African history to have another people rise to the defence of one of us – The defeat of the apartheid army was an inspiration to the struggling people in South Africa! Without the defeat of Cuito Cuanavale our organizations would not have been unbanned! The defeat of the racist army at Cuito Cuanavale has made it possible for me to be here today! Cuito Cuanavale was a milestone in the history of the struggle for southern African liberation!”
Nelson Mandela, January 26th, 1991. First President of Free South Africa
Ana’s point reminds me of when I was in grade 8 and I debated my religion teacher on the historic value of Che. He’s done so terrible things, great man overall.
Che has also never knowingly targeted innocent people. So the talks about how he has done terrible things makes no more sense than talking about, say, Lincoln doing terrible things since in the war he has waged against the South countless innocent lives were lost (which is inevitable in any war, even if it would be headed by a most saint person ever).
Sorry Anna but I think you should reevaluate your position on Castro. I don’t think Cuba is a model for socialism (full disclosure I’m to the left of Castro) however I think you’re US context has informed a grossly incomplete impression of the Cuban Revolution.
1) Fidel Castro was instrumental if not the single greatest reason for the fall of Apartheid in South Africa. The battle of Cuito Cuanavale broke the back of the SA military, liberating Namibia, ending the invasion of Angola and forcing the White Supremacist government to negotiate with the ANC. Nelson Mandela himself acknowledges how important Fidel was to this. The liberation of most of Southern Africa from white supremacist rule is a higher achievement for freedom then I know of any sitting world leader. You can disagree with state socialism (and I do) and be real this was an enormous benefit to humanity. The reaction to his death in Africa or in Harlem (where he was greeted by thousands of African supporters) is very different the it is in Miami for a very good reason.
2) living standards: before the revolution Cuba was a poor, illiterate and under industrialized Casino for the mafia and foreign corporations. It is irrational to compare it’s standard of living to the US. But compared to the examples of comparable capitalistcountries in Central, South America and the Caribbean, it is among the highest. No one does of starvation in Cuba, no one is homeless, some level of healthcare exists, student teacher ratios are 10:1 and illiteracy has been irradicated. A tiny poor nation, it has developed 2 functional cancer vaccines (something 1st world nations struggle to do). In real world terms, while thousands die needlessly from hardship every year in comparable capitalist nations like Haiti, Honduras, Dominican Republic, Mexico, these needless deaths don’t happen in Cuba. That is a gigantic achievement.
3) LGBT rights: Cuba legalized homosexuality in 1979, the US did in 2002. Cuba offers free transitional surgery and hormones to the trans community; the US never has. Cuban has the lowest transmission rate of HIV (in 2016 it was declared to have effectively eradicated the virus on the island) through an intensive program of treatment unseen in the rest of the world, while the US for the entirely of the 80s ignored the pleas of the LGBT community leading to thousands of needless deaths. Cuba did have for less then 2 years labor camps for homosexuals in the mid 60s, that were abolished by Castro himself after he entered them in hiding and witnessed them firsthand. At the same time the US allowed for lobotomy of homosexuals and chemical castration, along with brutal treatment and murder by police.
4) Human Rights; Cuba has a terrible Human Rights record, nowhere near that of most US supported governments today, but horrible. Here’s the thing, we excuse our governments war crimes as somehow not on the same level instinctively as those of other, poorer nations. “American excpectionalism” makes our use of torture a police debate but others a war crime, our brutal, at times deadly treatment of protesters as incidental and others innexcusable. Cuba has political prisoners, the US has political prisoners (who occasionally die in prison by beatings from guards, starvation, being burned alive, for crimes they did not commit) from Mumia and Leonard Peltier to Chelsea Manning and others. Cuba’s treatment of the Ladies in White is deplorable. The US treatment of Occupy and NDAPL protesters is far worse and potentially deadly (freezing protesters and shooting off limbs hasn’t happened in Cuba).
5) the Firing squads of 1961
Probably the biggest stain on Fidel. A brutal crime carried out by the state. But if the standard for a repugnant government is no consequences for the state and brutality, then apply it equally and not selectively. At roughly the same time as thousands of mostly Batista torturers and informants were killed along with I’m sure hundreds of innocent civilians, the US has carried out operation Wet Back, the forced deportation of Mexican workers into often desert areas of Mexico. It’s estimated between hundreds to thousands of Mexicans died as a result. All innocent workers. Up until the 1960s, hudrends of union activists had been killed by the state and militia groups supported by police in the US, in fact we have the bloodiest labor rights history in the western 1st world. All of this carried out with complete impunity by the state. My point isnt to say because we carry out Human Rights abuses regularly it cancels out Cuba’s, which would be a logical fallacy, it’s to say, that, be ethically consistent, our government has been and is to this day brutal, and disregards Human Rights, and yet you can look at the achievements we’ve carried out.
Because of Fidel, Apartheid was crushed and South Africa liberated, hundreds of thousand of Cubans that would have otherwise died lived because of the relative to Latin America & carribean capitalist nations, high standards to the basic (and beyond) needs of human beings. In actual terms, real world terms, these are massive achievements.
And you can still disagree with nationalism and state socialism (‘state capitalism’ as Lemon put it in State and Revolution) and dictatorship, as I do.
Ana is wrong both on Castro and Stein, she went full right-wing on this:
1. There is no evidence that Castro has ordered to kill innocent people, ever. Ana confuses Cold War era propaganda with reality. Castro has made a revolution and during the turmoil, of course, some people might be caught up, and yes, die unnecessary (and some are deceiving themselves and others on the innocence of their relatives), but it is a totally different thing from intentionally trying to kill innocent people. Some innocent people were killed, for example, in American Revolution of 1970s, and yet I am not hearing Ana calling the revolutionaries “horrible people”.
2. Castro has never forced the Cuban elites that have ravaged the country, benefiting from Batista’s dictatorship, and pro-fascists ideologues to flee; it is their choice. Some progressive rich families have stayed in the country and were glad to invest their riches to create one of the best healthcare and educations system in the world. Ana also says that the revolution has resulted in Castro getting what was right for him, not for people, but Castro was altruist and idealist that has never enriched himself, was selfless person.
3. Castro is a totally symbol of justice literally for billions of people around the world, it is undeniable. And countless world leaders, including “progressive” ones like Canada’s, were hailing Castro and his legacy, not just Stein. Why Ana single-out Stein?
4. Cuba’s healthcare is still by far better (as per international rankings) than what happens in the world for all the years after the USSR has fell apart, with no subsidies whatsoever. The educational system is still one of the best systems in the world, also no subsidies. I am personally not a communist, but I have to admit that Cuba’s GDP per capita is among the top globally at all, but it is a way above almost all “free” capitalist countries in Latin America, so Cuba’s system works much better than your average capitalist system (bar the golden billion countries that thrive on the legacy of imperialism and their colonial past where they parasites on other countries for hundreds of years), it is a FACT. And all of it while Cuba was under the blockade all this time (what Ana forgets), while those other countries are not.
5. There is nothing opportunistic about Stein’s platform: she literally says the same things for decades already, not unlike Bernard Sanders. Besides, Ana is saying that Stein’s heart was in the right place and yet she seemed unauthentic; how it is possible?
6. Stein never played “both sides” on vaccinations. She has made scientifically accurate statements on the issue, never claimed any connection of vaccination with autism.
Cenk says Jill Stein was not an electrifying candidate, but there is no way to know since is always was in a almost complete media blockade and never allowed to debate. Cenk forgetting this fact amazes me. And thinking that Castro was by far a good force is a mainstream progressive position that even many young generation Cuban immigrants do not are not so angry about versus older generation. The fact that more older Cuban immigrants also support Trump is no wonder since they also supported a real fascist Batista.
*in American Revolution of 1770s
Anguiru55 and dDErss, yes! There was a lot of ignorance spewed during this Post Game.
To Cenk I would say, what about the deal-breakers during the American revolution? Do you agree with taking away “landowners” property because they were British loyalists? Our revolution was righteous but Cuba’s was not?!
viva Castro , viva la revolucion , he help us , haiti so many times , he wanted to help the world , latin america , to make us better .
Wikipedia has a fair write down on the firing squads:
The lack of due process is, obviously, is horrible, but if you compare the results of this to what “nice guy” Obama does by killing thousands with his drone strikes, which, unlike with Castro’s firing squads, were not even guilty in more than 90% of cases, Castro was an amazingly mild and restrained humanist even in this case. There was a hardly milder way to protect the country for a fascist coup that CIA was preparing that would certainly call thousands of deaths of actually innocent people.
*There was a hardly milder way to protect the country from a fascist coup that CIA was preparing that would certainly cause thousands of deaths of actually innocent people.
Really interesting post game guys! I agree with Ana on Jill Stein seeming inauthentic. I have a hard time respecting someone who entertains conspiracy theories.
As a progressive cuban, it means so much to me that you two took a historically nuanced route. I’ve had so many arguments in the past few days with “progressives” who change their profile pictures to Castro and hashtag commandante bullshit when they don’t know anything about cuba’s history. The oppression of human rights should always be a dealbreaker. Ana, you’re truly a badass. I wish the world had more critically reflexive people like you.
Well said. I truly don’t understand how people I agree with on everything can be so wrong about Castro. Last I checked, Hitler rebuilt the autobahn and led Germany out of the Great Depression but we don’t mention his accomplishments for obvious reasons.
Comparing a man who committed genocide to a man leading a revolution is insanely stupid. Was George Washington the worst man that ever lived because of his involvement in the American Revolution? Is John Adams horrible for signing the Alien and Sedition Acts? Post revolution Cuba was a LOT like post revolution America. Things tend to get a bit more authoritarian the first few years after a revolution. It’s the case almost anywhere, anytime.
The first few years??!! This is a man who until his death refused human rights organizations to investigate conditions on the island. He jailed journalists and critics of his government. A blood thirsty dictator who killed nearly 4,000 people and disappeared many more using a firing squad. Also, George Washington stepped down as President after 2-terms during a time we had no term limits. What’s insanely stupid is comparing a jack-booted thug to George Washington.