Malcolm and Dave hosting this Friday’s Post Game. The duo play Totally True Or Totally Bullshit-including whether or not the ballot including legalizing marijuana. Last week’s throwback included bringing back Crazy Eddie, while this week’s centers around Carl Sagan. Dave shares why he wishes for Cenk to stop fetishizing the Marshall Plan.
Comments
Theres no dialogue back and forth so i never feel the need to agree or disagree. Please start the q&a!
Man, you guys really suck at the “no nuance” rule.
How DARE you?!
Do people ever feel the need to disagree with Dave? He is like 100% nuance and that is why he’s great.
The Marshall Plan is directly related to the Cold War. Maybe not the first step towards it but definitely one of the first steps and a prep towards this years long conflict that is not to be underestimated because the war was “cold.” Splitting Europe in two and financing former enemies of USSR , not USSR itself as an ally and huge factor in winning the WWII, is of course a step towards antagonizing the USSR. Of course USSR could not match this financing for their half of Europe.
If it was the altruistic “gesture” why didn’t it include the USSR? Well, a strong communist USSR could have tried taking over the entire Europe , not only Eastern, for one. Who cares to help this devasted country that lost so many men but did win at the end didn’t it. It is a myth that US involvement was decisive. They knew it and they were scared of strengthening it. The longer it was broke the better.
And besides, someone had to pay the banks for the war. The Marshall Plan could be viewed as a sort of complicated banks bailout lol.
So yes, Marshall Plan could have been the wonderful thing Cenk fetishizes (or whatever the word) over if it helped USSR and Eastern Europe as well. Preposterous idea right? See, you already agree it is not the wonderful altruistic plan the US executed, especially viewed in the context of the Cold War that ensued after WWII.
The U.S. didn’t marginalize all socialism in Europe after WW II. In fact, we insisted on co-determination and works councils in Germany, both elements of socialism. I think reasons for this were that many people in the Truman Administration were socialists (because they came in with FDR) and because many people in the U.S. government believed German industrialists were partly if not primarily responsible for starting both world wars in Europe.
Co-determination, which puts representatives from labor on the boards running large companies, and works councils, which are worker groups that determine how work will be done, have not just be successful in reducing the drive to war but they’ve also helped prevent German companies from relocating out of the country to cheaper areas, thus keeping up wages in Germany. I’m sure the Marshall Plan did push out communist groups, but that’s not the same as socialism.
It’s a shame the Truman Administration didn’t insist on socialism in the U.S. the way it did in Germany. We could use strong forces to resist militarism and resist exporting manufacturing jobs. But then, it’s hard to get people to change when they win a war. Wars dumb down society, and even winning one isn’t likely to make people smarter.
As the sign at Powell’s says, “Wars don’t determine who’s right, they just determine who’s left.”
No. I agree with you, Dave. Identity politics is almost always unproductive. I am what most people define as progressive on most issues. Do those few issues I’m not progressive on make me not a progressive? I don’t know and I don’t think it really matters. I don’t think it changes anything.
I’m also kind of wary of people who are 100% conservative or 100% progressive on every issue. There is nuance in this world.
I like TTOTB a lot . It’s a good window into the mind/ soul of each player.
On the Marshall Plan discussion, I have to add something essential to the
high regard in which many hold it.
Think of another war anywhere in history after which the winner elected to rebuild the
vanquished w/o occupying it with great severity. At the time, the mid 20th C, it was quite
unheard of~! Put aside the very real fact that much of the Plan served us economically and
industrialized those countries {{but mostly not in a military way.}}
Many things beyond the industrial went went over to rebuild our former enemies, permit them dignity, and make allies of them. Victors NEVER did that. Compassion and generosity. Sure, we
did well for ourselves by doing well by them. Nothing wrong w/ that~! Am I too far into nuance
for the rules~? I don’t think so. “TT,” say I~!
UPAYA
The argument for why the immigrant statement is true doesn’t really make sense. There was an “unfairly” in the question. You didn’t explain why it is unfair, just that they take jobs – which I agree with.
An addition on the subject of the Marshall plan:
David said that the countries that got it turned out to be much better than the socialist camp countries like Hungary and Romania, and, ultimately, it is correct. However, it should be pointed out that the issue was not within the economic system since many parts of the capitalist Europe that were not made to be a showcase of capitalism and hence got from little to know of those investments have stayed dirt poor for decades (Spain, Portugal, Greece, southern Italy, et cetera). Romania and Hungary lived much better all that time; the amount of social guarantees people had in such countries was better than in the strongest countries of the Western Europe until 1980s, when the socialist camp started actively decaying, what ended with the collapse of the USSR in 1991.
Another issue was that USSR, being crushed by the WWII, dealt with the unparalleled amounts of damage and destruction itself, and could not offer their own version of the Marshall plan to the socialist countries (yes, USSR did help a lot to recover/establish industries and infrastructure, but the scale was not there).
If it could, the picture would be drastically different: remember that before the WWIII USSR has built some of the most outstanding public institutions and infrastructure projects that could compete with the best examples of capitalist world. Hungary and Romania would be made amazing examples of the socialist system. (Of course, this is just a theoretical talks that makes so sense since the reality of was different and we know how it all ended.)
*Correction for clarity: “Romania and Hungary lived much better all that time; the amount of social guarantees people had in such countries was better than in the strongest countries of the Western Europe until 1980s” — the amount of the social guarantees should not to be confused with overall standard of living, which was, of course, way better in the Western Europe. The latter includes the amount of goods and services citizens could buy and it is vastly influenced by the middle class and the rich. The former is only about free healthcare, paid medical leaves, paid vacations, free education, and so on, all of which is accessible to everybody at all times. The standard of living in Romania and Hungary was below that of the Western Europe, but above countries/places like Portugal, Spain, Greece, southern Italy.
*”… got from little to no …”
can’t watch post game either on Sat 24th. I get 3 words then buffer. Hope it gets fixed even though its a weekend now. I save post games for the weekend so I don’t get TYT DTTs
Thanks for the show, the comments are on point this game, after you called us out : )
I’m with Dave on the issue of the unemployed “native”. Logically, yes, any job that an illegal immigrant gets is a job a “native” citizen didn’t get. The more important argument is whether or not that effect actually impacts the economy and job market in a significant or harmful way. I would go as far as to say that the effect of immigrants is negligible, and only becomes a significant issue worthy of discussion in the context of labor jobs, not positions in wall street banks. Also, it is a tactic of the Rightists to distract from the the fact that businesses employing illegal immigrants cause the most harm, and should be central to the discussion. Policing illegal immigrants is a costly and arduous task, but regulating business is easy, as a reluctant as our lawmakers may be to do it. **TOTALLY BULLSHIT** If anything, the employers themselves are being unfair.
Dave, your argument that government-funded action of climate change is not free market and government shouldn’t do anything and just let the free market decide is wrong, as you are assuming there is a free market at the moment which is completely wrong. Coal and oil was heavily subsidised at the beginning and still continues to be to this day. It is therefore completely unfair to force new tech to compete against old highly-subsidised established tech, to get anywhere near a proper and fair free market, the government has to either highly-subsidised climate change action or tax the hell out of coal and oil, that will remove the advantage coal and oil currently enjoys and allows the free market to work properly.
Could not find where to watch this live. Member’s Live page still had Aggressive Progressives link for me.
Makes me glad I took the yearly membership so I had no headaches on that front.
Y’all need to get your IT and administrative act together. Laughing off charging former TYT members, having trouble with the web platform, and bringing content like this post game show LIVE to your members, should be problems that were solved at the start . You have to properly generate revenue and deliver your content and y’all are still not doing that very well which is an utter joke.
There is no place to see it live. They tape it so that it can be shown on Friday as the post-game show.
# TYTLIVE
Every Weekday @5:15pmPT — Post Game
NEW TIME: Tuesdays @6pmPT — All Star Tuesdays
Wednesdays @8pmPT — TYT Old School
Thursdays @6pmPT — Aggressive Progressives
These aren’t streamed live. Pre-recorded the Thursday prior buddy!
# TYTLIVE
Every Weekday @5:15pmPT — Post Game
NEW TIME: Tuesdays @6pmPT — All Star Tuesdays
Wednesdays @8pmPT — TYT Old School
Thursdays @6pmPT — Aggressive Progressives