Ben Mankiewicz, Michael Shure, Wes Clark Jr., and Brett Erlich hosting. Chelsea bomber apprehended. Trump’s and Clinton’s reactions. Corey Lewandowski blames illegal immigration. Stein believes Clinton bigger threat than Trump.
I sure can tell from all the comments that I am not alone. If we have no hope until 2020, lets stop talking about the election. What’s the point https://youtu.be/yTMXteZokXs
been begging them to cover something other than the election for months now. I guess if Trump wins, and Cenk didn’t spend every day talking about why he’s bad, he’d feel guilty.
“Stop talking about it” is not an option, but for this week at least, I am certainly much more interested in the leadership election of the British Labour party (Corbyn vs Smith) than in this one.
After reading some of the Hilary criticism on these comments I might have been mistaken when I said she deserves 90% of the criticism she receives. I’m dropping that down to 70%, lol.
As much of a problem we all have with Hilary, nobody is suggesting that she would be nearly as bad as Donald Trump right? That would be insane. The things Trump suggested doing about US Debt, Global Trade, Nuclear Proliferation, The global security apparatus installed since world war 2, Immigration, Terrorism, Climate change, and have been, for lack of a better word, stupid borderline insane. And yes vote for somebody other than Hilary is essentially a vote for Trump. It’s pretty simple actually. To think that Donald Trump couldn’t do a significant amount of damage in fours is not only a HUGE gamble, but not a thought pattern based in reality. Clinton deserves 90% of the criticism she receives and it drives me insane when Ben defends her against some of them, but we should all doing anything we can to avoid a Trump presidency. That’s a point that couldn’t be more clear.
It IS insane, but it is also what some people are suggesting. They are being totally irrational and thinking only emotionally about it, and saying that if you vote in a way that makes sense, you’re giving into fear. It’s a totally irrational opinion, so I’m not sure how to reach those people with reason.
Ive never had to fight the urge to unsub ( as in stop giving you money each month), from TYT until this episode of the show.
Am i watching CNN? With that a vote for Jill is a vote for Trump bullshit?
Our vote could never count more, that is why it will be even stronger when it goes third party and we manage to get third party candidates to a strong 15-20% standing. Our goal should be to shatter this ridiculous idea that third party candidates cant win, so dont vote for them.
Its not your job to tell me that i am an asshole for not wanting to eat hilary clintons shit.
If youre going to have Ben Manc and Michael Shure on the panel you NEED to have Jimmy Dore on there to offset the passive Establishment stumping these two so often default into.
I completely agree on keeping balanced panels. It was often hard to take this panel seriously because of how tilted it was towards more centrist, establishment politics.
I love having Ben and Michael on the show – they give very good insights to how the establishment thinks, operates, and perceives things. Having those viewpoints presented is incredibly valuable, and is often useful in forcing the more progressive TYT panelists to fully think and talk through their opinions.
However, this felt more like watching MSNBC or CNN. I’m a TYT member because I love the political discourse that happens when the panel is varied. It forces me to think critically and form opinions based on all the information presented, rather than participating in the echo-chamber that makes up most “news stations” these days.
you have a point. I can’t stand the Hillary sycophant stuff. If the only answer is “hold you nose and vote for her”, then lets just stop talking about the election. What’s the point, we are gonna get fucked, only choice is Hillary might, or might not, use lube, Trump won’t.
CNN doesn’t even acknowledge that Jill Stein exists. So, you’re not watching CNN. Voting for Hillary Clinton is not “eating hilary clintons shit”. It’s just a vote for one of the two candidates who will be president, or a vote against the person you would like not to be president. Jill Stein will not be president. Do you think she has a chance to win the election in November? If so, you’re delusional. if not, then what is the point of your vote? Is it a message to someone? It’s not electing anyone, so if it’s not a message, what is the point of it? If it is a message, who is it for?
So what youre saying is… i should only vote, if i know 100% my vote will lead to the victory of my choice of candidate?
Is that how elections work? Dont vote your conscious, words Hilary Clinton herself said – which i guess only applies to Republicans who are anti Trump, but only vote for sure winners, if you’re guy cant win, hold your nose and vote for a winner! Are you channeling Donald Trump right now?
I am the delusional one?
Id rather be a blip on the green party polls that gets them one step closer to recognition in the next 4 years, then go in and pretend that Hilary Clinton will do a FUCKING thing for me as a candidate if i simply swallow my pride, my moral indignation and my disgust towards her and write in her name.
The entire time he was running the media, the DNC, the RNC all shouted Bernie Sanders could not win. Should people not have voted for him because it turned out he did not win? Even though he went from talking to 30 people in a park, to 50 thousand people in a stadium, are you saying those people wasted their vote when they continued to support a candidate who “could not win” and did not win?
If you think the only time you should vote, is when you know for certain it will lead to the victory of your candidate, you are the one who is lost friend.
I’m not saying anything about some general “always do this” strategy. And I’m certainly not saying anything like this childish and simplistic characterization you’ve applied to me. I’m only talking about what you should do in this election right now, the one that’s in 40 days.
Bernie could have won the primary if he had started earlier, and if he had won the primary, he would be wiping the floor with Trump right now. But he was sure he couldn’t win when he started, due to the history of our elections that he’s quite familiar with. He wanted to be a message candidate at first, so that in the primaries, issues that are important would get discussed. Then, around December-January, the early poll numbers scared the shit out of the Clinton team, and they pushed hard on their superdelegates and their media surrogates and every coalition of community organizers and their big money donors, and Bernie still out fundraised her in February and March and April. If he had only known this would be the year voters had finally had enough, he could have won. And obviously, that would have been a great thing, and we would be in a much better position than we are now with stupid neoliberal Hillary Clinton. But even then, our work would not be done. There’s only so much any president can do. They need people to be active and pushing all the time.
If you want third parties, or just better parties, or if you want to have some kind of power invested in the people, you have to demand it, and voting is almost irrelevant when it comes to political action. Voting is just the icing on the cake once you’ve done the work. Once you’ve organized millions of people together, and raised someone up out of your own ranks, and their power and position comes from you, and they only got where they’re going because you and your group raised them up, and you’ve got coalitions of your organization at every level of government, then when it comes time to vote, you already have the numbers, and you vote for them. Just showing up after 4 years and voting for a third party does nothing. Democracy is work, daily work. You have to be constantly on task. It’s hard work, and the powerful will always be trying to stop you. It’s not fun. You lose a lot. It’s not satisfying and comforting. It doesn’t come with meaningless phrases like “I’m voting my conscience”. But it has the benefit of being effective. It’s how we’ve always done anything meaningful. Without active communists and socialists and budding labor movements in the 1930’s, there would be no New Deal. FDR was pushed. Without the progressive movement of the early 20th century, there would be no FDA and income tax. Taxes were obscenely regressive in 1912 and meat was filled with disease. The democrats wouldn’t even have become the party of labor had they not absorbed the issues of the progressive party, which was a third party at the time. Woodrow Wilson was a racist who ran on keeping us out of War, and then he was elected and entered WWI. But a whole bunch of progressive laws were passed as well. You don’t get everything you want immediately. In fact, sometimes you get exactly the opposite, but you have to go with your best choice of the choices you have. Unless you have a magic wand that’s going to make everyone decide to vote for Jill Stein on November 8th, she’s not going to win. So, nothing she stands for is going to happen by you voting your conscience. If you vote for Clinton, she will not want to do anything you want. You have to do the work to push her. You don’t have another choice where you just get what you want because you want it.
This comment management system sucks balls. That was the best thing about the now aborted move to GBox. They used disqus. Way better than this. Anyway…
I think some of those voting for Trump (either directly or implicitly via Stein) partly want to see the world burn. It’s like driving slowly in the fast lane. Sometimes you just want to fuck with the world out of frustration or to feel some sort of power. That brief moment of control will quickly end when you get rear ended by a fast moving semi you won’t see coming. That’s what I think Ben and Michael are doing here. They’re essentially yelling out at the Mr Magoo drivers, “You’re going the wrong way!”…
Agree with everything you said, especially about the commenting system. Really annoying that the page reloads just to publish my comments…oh no here it goes ag-
FUCK THAT Ben Mankiewicz and Michael Shure! Both Trump and Clinton will be horrific for the environment and climate. Clinton will be more effective in getting her donors agenda accomplished while Trump is such a moron, he will get nothing done! I will never vote for Hillary! I will not reward her and the DNC for their dishonesty and corruption. I will vote for Jill Stein! We need #MoreDore!!! No more establishment apologists!!!
I knew Ben could not get thru an Hour with going full-Muppet.
Also knew Michael would try to bulldoze everyone with his near-catatonic droning on about $hillary.
MORE Wes Clark …
Aggressive Progressive needs to have Wes Clark make a visit.
Also, Steve & Jimmy, Get Kshama Sawant to come on … or better yet, have her debate Michael!!!!!
Pu-LEEZE!!!! That would be epic … “I’d buy that for a dollar! ”
Michael Shure vs. Kshama Sawant!
Almost everyone who is highly negative in this comment section is bummed out that he didn’t get affirmation.
Fox News will give you the right-wing perspective, no matter if it makes sense or not.
Alex Jones will give you the uber-right perspective, no matter if it makes sense or not.
Other news shows which I don’t know much about will probably give you a moderate perspective, no matter if it makes sense or not, or a neutral perspective.
TYT is not supposed to give you a left-wing perspective no matter if it makes sense or not. TYT is supposed to give you the perspective that makes sense.
Which they did here. Kudos. Smart people saying smart things about subjects they are informed about. Good show.
No-one who said this panel was horrible made anything close to a comprehensive rebuttal of the arguments brought forth here. Because you /can’t/. Because the arguments /make sense/. Reality right now has a profound anti-Trump bias. Voting for Hillary Clinton is the right choice, no matter how terrible she is. Not doing it is the wrong choice.
Right now, Jimmy Dore is becoming the guy who will give you the most progressive perspective, no matter if it makes sense or not. Hope that changes.
“No-one who said this panel was horrible made anything close to a comprehensive rebuttal of the arguments brought forth here. Because you /can’t/. Because the arguments /make sense/. ”
I don’t think you read all the posts. Michael says that there will be more war, bombings etc with Trumpzilla. Sorry, but I said that $he would bring MORE war than even Obama … more “surgical strikes that do kill some civilians,” I believe is how Michael put it. Did you hear him sneak in that remark while Wes was talking about the incredible about of bombing Obama has already done. He just slid that in under his breath.
Tell me if this makes “sense” to you .. $he is a war-monger as evidenced by the company $he keeps, ala Kissinger, Negroponte & the Neo-Con crew who fully support Her views. She praises Kissinger as a trusted advisor. Defense contractors are doing cart-wheels at the thought of Her administration. More “Interventions” = More Bank for Her donors! I base my beliefs on Her ACTIONS, Her words and empty platitudes mean nothing.
And btw, $he doesn’t even give the empty platitudes anymore! $he won’t even PRETEND to support progressive values! $he quit that game and went straight to … “Vote for me, or you get Trump. Vote for me OR ELSE.”
***You may want to check out lewsipgj’s posts about Clinton triangulation & this being a referendum on the True Colors of Neo-Liberalism.
***Euroyankee also has some great points about how incredibly naive it is to think $hillary will suddenly “lean left.” She has no intention of doing so.
True, Jimmy gets a bit crazy when he gets on the $hillary-Parkinsons-train, but have you seen any of his videos about Kshama Sawant? I suspect not, as you seem to have discounted him as the type of Progressive who “only tells you what you want to hear.”
Above all I think your post sums up the generally tone of this Hour.
The Intelligent, Practical, Grown-ups who are ONCE AGAIN telling the Whiny, ill-informed & Naive Children to sit up straight at the table and eat their vegetables. STOP complaining! Take your medicine! You will understand when you are Rational Adults like we are.
Check out Kshama Sawant. Then tell me how anyone who will NOT vote for $hillary is the “wrong choice.”
Its not affirmation needed on the progressive angle, its balance. This was exactly mainstream media coverage [which is center left leaning on the democratic side], just until Ben’s “you have to vote Hillary and tell your friends” tirade. Then it was full on establishment fear monger democrats. I know these guys have progressive values, but get a little more balance in there.
Ben said Jill Stein is relying on supporters who don’t feel included in the political system, as if they are clinging to her because they don’t know any better. Every Jill Stein supporter I’ve ever met or talked to have been the most informed, most engaged and politically enthusiastic. It’s not like shes preying on disenfranchised little children.
Cornel West, Chris Hedges, Richard Wolff… some of the smartest people in this country are voting Jill Stein. Don’t patronize a section of Third party voters because you feel they are being taken advantage of.
The grass roots activists are “banding together” now. More than any other party, third parties as a whole are joining together and running protests everywhere. Every progressive legislation ever passed in this country has started at the grassroots and the third party level. Labor Unions, activists and third parties. And it doesn’t take as many people as you think, a couple hundred thousand people. You don’t think we can get that many people together against Trump, but we can against Hillary? Nixon was just about our last Liberal president and that was because of his fear from the activists. He passed more Liberal policies than anybody in the last 35 years.
You and the most adamant Hillary supporters know she will not stick to her progressive platform, and your answer is to Vote Hillary then push for their third party candidate in 2020? You’re discouraging us to do so now. How do you think that conversation will go in 2018? Or 2020?
One last note, I noticed anytime the subject of change or “banding together” comes in, Ben avoids including himself. I just wanted it known that if your going to let others do the leg work and the protesting for you, you should at least attempt to respect their decision to do so now.
tl;dr
Ben has it all backwards. Third party supporters aren’t disenfranchised and holding onto their both are bad “Tobacco Company” feelings. But if you keep beating down and discouraging the [majority of those currently protesting] and trying to change the country right now; Then, the result will be disenfranchised people who have no place in the political system. And they wont have the energy to campaign in 2020 because you don’t trust them now. Whats worse is you need these protesters to make change happen, yet blame everything on them.
Ugh, I found Ben and Michael to be even more nauseating than normal. If I wanted to hear how amazing Hillary is and how I’m a privileged brat for not wanting to vote for her, we’ll I would turn on tv.
Yes Trump is a bloated childlike fool who pretends to be a strong man. Hillary is a corporate insider who has sold us out time and time again. I am so tired of people telling me how to vote. Seriously guys… remember who your audience is. We watch TYT because we are sick of smug establishment corporatists.
I’ve been very disappointed with The Young Turks’ coverage of Jill Stein. They’ve had very little coverage of her on the main show, and when they do cover her, it is to criticize her. I really like Ana, but I was so disappointed when she regurgitated the smear campaign talking points against Jill Stein as if they were facts. I expected her and Cenk to have done their research. Why didn’t they fact check “statements” that sounded so ludicrous like they had done with the smears against Bernie? I wish Jimmy Dore had been there to set the record straight. I expect more of The Young Turks being alternative, independent media and all, and I wish progressive viewpoints like Jimmy Dore’s and Steve Oh’s hadn’t been, for the most part, relegated to a separate show one day of the week. Throughout the #LoserDonald segment, Cenk has made it clear that time and time again Trump is utterly incompetent. I’m sorry, but I’m not afraid of what he might do if he gets into office. He can’t manage a single business, let alone the country! I’m more afraid of what Hillary will do if she gets into office, because she actually is competent, and if she’s another Obama then I am afraid of what will continue, not hopeful of what little change she may or may not have to offer progressives.
I just have to say that in regards to this first hour, I am disappointed and conflicted about how I feel. I do not reject hearing others opinions about the election in anyway, and I am not here to only get my own perspectives covered. (Some coverage would be nice, actually.) But I do have to say that the condescending, berating and talking down to the audience makes me question why I pay for membership. I don’t watch TYT to be put down, chastised and disrespected.
This election is not merely a referendum on Trump.
It is also a referendum on Clintonian triangulation, neoliberalism, empire, and Wall Street, to name a few.
How ridiculous a position, to seriously justify ignoring half of the reality: “ignore Clinton and make this a referendum on Trump.” In effect: “ignore the snake that’s biting you by focusing on how great it feels that the tiger isn’t biting you.”
Gentlemen, this is what we call “desensitization”. You think we’re in danger of “normalizing” Trump, when the more pertinent danger (for already-sane people) is normalizing Clinton.
Also, Michael states that within our existing two-party system the Democrats would be the only party likely to change the system to allow for 3rd parties. Sure.
But what if they refuse? What if they refuse to make the legislative changes, e.g. introducing instant-runoff voting, and furthermore block, stall, and ignore such legislation? How is voting them into power, over and over and over again, ever going to change this?
It won’t. The only way to change them is to exert POWER over them. The primary electoral power we have is the power of our vote. Therefore, myself and many others are now withholding ALL FUTURE VOTES FOR DEMOCRATS until they achieve (or demonstrate sufficient interest in achieving) ranked-choice voting in every single state.
Use your big brain, Mike. Power concedes nothing without a demand. We demand that they fix our broken electoral system BEFORE they can have our votes again. They’ve had every opportunity in every election; they never fix the system but – every four years, without fail – they resurrect the same tired arguments that we can’t change our voting behavior until we fix the system.
How many more elections of the two parties arguing the “spoiler effect” yet never doing anything to change the situation, until you realize that you’re being duped?
RIGHT ON. I find people like Mike to be incredibly naive. In 2015 Bernie Sanders came out of nowhere. Clinrton and the DNC didn’t see him coming until it was too late. So what did they do? They CHEATED.
If Clinton wins, she will have the power of the incumbency. And she will have the legitimacy of the incumbency to justify even more blatant and unabashed favoritism by the DNC. Anyone who thinks that there could EVER be a viable progressive opposition to Hillary in 2020 is being incredibly naive. Look how the Clinton supporters – paid and unpaid – treated us this time round – and imagine the vicious vitriol and violence the Clinton cadre will unleash on anyone who dares to even question the dear Leader, the venerated incumbent, the first female POTUS. You think charges of sexism were overblown this time around? Wait until we dare to criticise the first woman in the Oval Office.
Another, equally naive position is to believe that Hillary will somehow listen to the Left once she is in office. That we Progressives will somehow, magically, have more sway over Hillary once she has won the Office. Hillary is going after Republicans to get their votes – she is not coming after Progressive votes. It is sheer folly to think that once she has seized the levers of power she will suddenly turn away from those Republicans and centrists whose votes helped her win, and instead seek to win the approval and support of the Progressives that she is currently shunning.
Mike and Ben make the point over and over again that we should oppose Trump NOW. That we have the most leverage NOW. How can they then think that we will have MORE leverage once Clinton has achieved her ambition and become President?
No – Hillary must NOT be allowed to win. If she does, we will be condemning ourselves to decades of centrist corporatism and corruption, play-to-play politics on a global scale, and more, much more war.
> How can they then think that we will have MORE leverage once Clinton has achieved her ambition and become President?
Aw, they don’t care what happens past that point. Ben and Mike will be treading softly-softly for eight years while Clinton implements a moderate-Republican program.
Are we supposed to believe that the both of them will become progressive firebrands as soon as Clinton secures enough electoral college votes? It’s just not going to happen.
“Michael states that within our existing two-party system the Democrats would be the only party likely to change the system to allow for 3rd parties. Sure.”
Good use of sarcasm. The fact is, power does not relenquish power willingly. Anyone who suggests that “Dems are more likely to…” is incredibly naive. Including Michael. I think he’s just so set in his grove that he cannot see anything outside his narrow scope. Like many “party loyalists.”
It makes no sense for Cenk to belittle Trump as a numbskull bumbler incompetent fool, and simultaneously say Trump is the greatest danger to our democracy. No, that honor goes to Hillary Clinton. She is smart where Trump is dumb. Though she often tells stupid, obvious lies, she also can tell fairly convincing ones when she’s working the right crowd with the right script. When she’s on her full sociopathic game, her lies can fool smart people, too. That also makes her more dangerous.
President Trump will stomp and flail his arms, but he’s likely to cause more problems for Republicans than Democrats. Hillary will cause more problems for Democrats than Republicans, because her preferred world-view is more Republican than Dem. She is a Neocon-Neoliberal, and Queen of Wall Street and the Corporate Oligarchy.
I think we’d survive 4 years of Trump, then elect a real progressive in 2020. I don’t think our democracy is as likely to survive a Hillary Clinton presidency. I truly don’t.
This panel sucks. How about some progressive balance? You stuck Jimmy on a members only show on Thursdays, and fill the main show with the HRC brigade!? Keep it up, and lose members .you can’t have Ben and Mike in together without a counter pont, otherwise the progressives in the audience just get yelled at by the fear police. Knock it off!!
I enjoyed the show and the discussion about Stein’s comments. I just wish people had used their voting power to vote Bernie in rather than using their voting power after the fact to keep Trump out. I get that we are passed that point but I don’t see why youngsters would engage at this point when they have no one to vote FOR.
Well, most people here don’t agree with that position. I guess they go by the superior, more powerful and more persistent motto Semper Ardens (which is Latin for “always burning”).
most people certainly do, 3 of 4 hosts in this hour (probably 4, Brett didn’t answer the question he asked) I suspect that reflects the view of a substantial number of members, not the two dozen who comment
It might be an admonition originally, but “caveat emptor” is now most definitely the motto of the Clinton camp. The only motto they have, or will ever have.
I remember that 80% of TYT viewers said “Never Hillary” to the one poll TYT conducted themselves during the primaries. That was June. Even if the 80% has shrunk by now, do you really think that it’s now a minority?
Incidentally, voting has always kept going on that Youtube poll, and it now stands at 83% “Never Hillary”. It’s not a scientific poll, it might not mean much, but…there you go.
I find Ben’s and Michael’s white privileged mansplaining of everything completely off putting. What a couple of arrogant and condescending fellows they are! Notice how they interrupt and expect it always to be about their opinions. Really find them tiresome. Ben is really good on TCM, by the way, but if he’s on All-star Tuesday, count me out.
The more I see of Wes Clark, the more I like him. I think he was spot on with the problem of Hillary’s campaign. The dems are ignoring the real problems of the people of the country while Clinton goes on extended money-raising jaunts with the very people/corporations/industries that are causing the problems for the rest of the people of this country. Somehow they seem to think we won’t notice! I disagree with Ben that she needs to continue to raise “millions and millions” of dollars. If she would genuinely appeal to the people, she could raise money in small donations from individuals – you know, those people she’s supposed to represent? Or she could use her own fortune ala Trump. She’s running out of time and fucking up badly.
I do agree that Donald Trump would be a disaster for the country and the world. I would never vote for him and, if I didn’t live in CA where Hillary is sure to win, I would vote for her, though it would pain me to do so. Anyone who lived through the Bush Jr. years must surely understand the chance we are taking and the stakes are even higher now. Yes, Hillary is a horrible candidate, but her presidency will do far less damage than Trump’s. He is fucking uncontrollable; she at least has some sense though she must be made to heel to the will of the people, thug that she is.
I would like to thank TYT for its service. Without them I wouldn’t be voting for Jill Stein this election. A matter of fact, I would not be voting at all.
I definitely appreciate TYT, the propaganda machines are just mind numbing. However, the balance was a bit missing tonight. My wife turned me on to Dr. Stein after it became clear that Bernie had taken too many stabs in the back by the DNC establishment. She is a very impressive with her capabilities on presenting her platforms, especially when she is interviewed by hostile hosts. I have seen her consistently hand their heads to them and would love to see Shure and Mankiewicz man-up and try. Watching the spit flying out of their mouths whenever Stein’s name is mentioned has become difficult to watch.
A lot of ppl dislike Ben and Michael, I’m not one of them. While I don’t agree with most of what they say, I do appreciate their views Bc it forces me to look at things from a different angle.
It is pretty obvious that HRC is in a shit storm and that she needs the help of progressives, millennials, and now some polls show she is lacking in the Hispanic vote as well.
I have been watching TyT for a little over a year now and I have learned MANY things. 1. The majority of the country is more left than center. 2. We are literally running out of bombs bc we shoot first and ask questions later. 3. Our entire government is for sale. 4. We imprisson more ppl than any other country in the world. 5. Those that we imprisson are predominantly minorities and for non violent offenses. 6. If your rich, you can literally get away with murder. 7. If a profit can be made from sufferage, it will happen. 8. The “war on drugs” was a ploy to lock up minorities and hippies so they don’t vote. The list goes on.
So with all this new information that TyT has armed me with, I simply can not vote for the party who has been in power for the past 8 years and done nothing about the above facts. Obama promised us (the country) Change. Where is that change? I see change for the worse, not for the better. We still assert our military in areas we are not wanted. We still kill innocent ppl by the thousands while claiming we are bringing freedom. We still lock up (for profit) thousands of our citizens and strip them of the right to vote. We still have food deserts in the richest country in the world. Federal minimum wage is still the same. You can still buy our government. Etc etc.
So the argument that HRC will somehow accomplish the things that Obama couldn’t/wouldn’t, just doesn’t make sense to me. Many would argue that the Repubs are why these things didn’t change. Obama had the congress, didn’t change a damn a thing. The judge argument, Obama wanted to appoint Garland, a moderate. Yet you want me to believe that HRC would appoint progressives. TPP will be passed in a lame duck session. Yet I’m supposed to believe that she will do what the people want once she is in office? Every 4 years it’s the same story. Vote for me Bc I’m not them. In another 4 years, it will be the same again, no matter who wins this time.
If Trump wins, the only ones at fault are the Dems. We gave them 8 years and in return we didn’t get “change”, we got more of the same shit wrapped in a different package. That fact is why Trump is doing so well. So maybe instead of yelling at voters for not “falling in line”, you should yell at the Dems for not doing the job we elected them for. The time of Dems coming out and pandering every 4 years then going about their usual establishment politics is over. It’s their fault for not seeing it and reacting.
This panel should be called the Voices of Reason. YES, NOT NOW! I totally agree that there is a time and place for everything and if you can’t say anything good about Hillary RIGHT NOW, then DON’T say anything at all. The day after she wins the presidency, GO RIGHT AHEAD, PLEASE force her to pursue a progressive agenda…. I will support you 100%. I am still a Bernie supporter and always will be BUT I realise that a protest vote only risks loosing the ability altogether to protest under a Trump regime. If he wins there is a good chance that he will also have the House, the Senate…. AND his appointments to the Supreme Court will change the laws of America against US progressives for decades to come… and thats only if we don’t slip into some sort of Trump dictatorship and/or civil war. The damage done will set back any Democratic, never the least progressive, agenda for generations. People argue that if Trump wins “it will destroy the Republican party.” To that I say, yes it might destroy the party but also the country along with it. He has brought about so much damage already. Is it worth it? I really wish that Michael, Ben or Wes be put on the Dore Unhinged Show (aka: Aggressive Regressives) to add some balance to Jimmy’s arson and slander. It is time get past our feelings on the current situation and logically do what we have to do in order to keep the advancements that we have today. So YES! NOT NOW!
Apparently you think Steve is unhinged as well, since he is also on AP and agrees with most everything Jimmy says, albeit with a more laid-back delivery. “Aggressive Regressive?” it seems $hill-bots, Obama apologists and “Centrists” are the ones who are regressing. Back to the good ol’Goldwater-Republican days! Yippee Skippee!
Have you even heard the argument that Prez Trumpzilla will UNITE Democrats?
You are telling me that Republicans can stop Obama from blowing his nose … can stop him from His Right to appoint a Supreme Court Justice … but that Dems will not be able to stop Trumpzilla?
Trumpzilla will build a wall, kick out every Muslim, every Immigrant. Trumpzilla will control the media & reporting … oh wait, MSM already is controlled by their Corporate overlords!
You actually believe that the Corporations, the Establishment, the Oligarchy will ALLOW Trumpzilla to do A N Y T H I N G that they do not approve of? Really? Mr. America-Great-Again? They will love him as their new spokesman!
BUT you say Progressives will be able to fight $hillary, Corporate Dems & Republicans? The Establishment? THAT scenario is rational? That scenario is the more plausible?
It’s incredibly difficult to take you seriously with the dollar signs and name-calling. This is what I expect from the commentariat of Breitbart or The Blaze.
Interesting you focus on the visual without addressing any of the substance.
This is what I would expect from someone whose name indicates they live under a bridge.
The only “wasted vote” is one cast for a person you don’t believe in. I will follow Hillary’s advice in November and “Vote My Conscience” — which means I will NOT vote for Hillary Clinton.
We already know that “independents” outnumber people registered either Democrat or Republican. Now, consider this: come November, what percentage of the votes will be AGAINST a candidate, not for one?
You can start with a half dozen “against” votes, as declared by Cenk, Ana, John and others on TYT. They don’t like Hillary, but they are afraid of Trump, so they are casting their votes in a manner to be most effectively AGAINST the candidate they fear. OK. I don’t agree with their strategy, but I under stand it.
Now multiply that by… how many tens of millions of people? People who don’t like Hillary but they are voting against Trump. People who don’t like Trump but they are voting against Hillary. I believe the number of “against” votes will be far greater than the number of “for” votes.
Now imagine that everyone who intends to vote “against” Trump or Hillary instead pairs up with their opposite, a voter who wants to vote against the other person. And they make a pact, that instead of cancelling out each other’s vote, they will instead vote Third Party.
You know what that would lead to? Third Party candidates would garner more votes than either Dem or Rep. It would be the END of both the Democratic and Republican parties as we know them.
Who knows, it could even lead us back to… democracy.
> Now imagine that everyone who intends to vote “against” Trump or Hillary instead pairs up with their opposite, a voter who wants to vote against the other person. And they make a pact, that instead of cancelling out each other’s vote, they will instead vote Third Party.
I see what you mean , and “vote pairing” is a totally legitimate attempt to improve a single-winner, effectively two-party system. But would you agree that such pacts should only be formed between two voters who live in the same state? Because if voter A lives in a swing state and voter B lives in a safe state, then the cancelling out of B’s vote has no likely consequences whereas the cancelling of A’s vote is potentially consequential. The point being, in that case the votes of A and B are not equal and therefore could not be considered to “cancel each other out” like that. If A and B both live in the same state, then clearly, this isn’t an issue.
Agreed. Given the innately suspicious natures of most humans, including me, I would go a step further — these pacts are not likely to work on an honor system involving total strangers.
Where I live, I know plenty of people on all sides of the political persuasion. Furthermore, because of the logistics of rural living, most of us vote absentee, by mail, on a permanent basis. This means we get our ballots weeks in advance. It would be a simple thing for me to arrange to meet with a Republican neighbor who doesn’t like Trump but who HATES Hillary, and we can mark our presidential votes together — each able to verify that the other person voted Third Party.
Of course, there is always the possibility that my neighbor could secretly go to the county registrat later, anul their first absentee ballot and request a new one… but that is more work and bother… hard to imagine anyone being THAT intent on garnaring one more vote AGAINST the person they don’t like the most.
I threw the idea out there on a whimsical note, but the more I think about it… this is do-able.
Under the current system, we are all held hostage to two dictatorial, non-democratic parties. How else can we end that bondage?
Perhaps you can simplify it even further, if you lean progressive and live in a solid red state, or lean conservative and live in solid blue, vote third party. No worrying about finding someone to cancel your vote or whatever. Your vote isn’t counting for much in those scenarios anyway, might as well send a message to the establishment that we are done playing those games. Spend more time convincing others to think about their vote in this manner and we might actually scare the parties into a ranked choice system.
Hey TYT, thanks for suddenly assuming everyone’s in the loop. Some of us don’t live in the US and don’t care for American news from other sources, so the usual introduction to every story on some attack would be nice.
I’m down with that, but then let’s not have any complaints from anyone later about how half the Wes Clark show is about Russia and the Balkans (which, again, I would find acceptable).
I don’t think you’ve interpreted that correctly (it doesn’t mean “vote for Hillary”, for example). I’m only pointing out that there is a different way to frame/phrase the post-election part of that position.
I think I did. Policy over personality. Republicans almost always proceed in this fashion with their current “savior”, it is disconcerting when Progressives do the same.
I do think your formula leads to one conclusion in the current contest.
Libertarians are not Progressive. You can decide about the Green Party, their platform is significantly more “progressive” than Libertarians or Republicans. I do think it is safe to say that the Green Party is not siphoning off Republican votes.
My issue with the debate about the differences between a Trump presidency and a Clinton one is people behaving as if it’s a simple distinction to make. There are compelling arguments on both sides and the correct answer is not clear because there are so many unknowns. It would be helpful if everyone concerned could begin from a position of acceptance that the choices here are complex. As I mentioned before the words of neither candidate are likely representative of what they would actually do. Additionally on the subject of appointing judges; yes Trump would likely appoint far right maniacs, but one could argue he’d rather select center-right old school republicans of the type Clinton would likely choose, for it’s highly optimistic to think she’d chose anyone truly progressive.
I noted Ben expressed the point that people should follow Bernie and not wait for leadership from another voice on this issue. I found that comment quite revealing of his deference to American political institutions and personalities which I believe compromises his analysis.
All of you are petty. This panel and TYT in general are critical of all candidates in the race, the reality is no-one got what they wanted in Sanders or Warren. Regardless of what happens, the only thing I think about is:
If Trump wins, and I fail to oppose him with every fiber of my being, and then he decides to use nuclear weapons in another country – am I responsible? I think yes.
I get it, we’ve been dealt a poor hand – now we need to put our efforts into playing that hand best we can. Support PROGRESSIVE movements. Like WolfPac?
> and then he decides to use nuclear weapons in another country
Not like we haven’t heard that one before. I remember a long list of people arguing in 1999 that the nuclear holocaust would begin within months of George W. Bush being elected president.
I think you are mistaking Trump and Bush as people of the same temperament. I don’t recall Bush ever saying that nuclear weapons are not on the table for even… Europe?
It is doubtful that anyone ever has a reliable handle on what the true temperament of any candidate is, prior to that candidate coming into office. Notions, impressions and speculations, but nothing reliable.
Secondly, if temperament is how we decide who can be allowed near nuclear policy, then the point remains: all those people in 1999 turned out to be off the mark with their predictions of how Bush’s temperament – or whatever they perceived to be the fuse for nuclear war contained in George W. Bush – have failed in their predictions.
Sure, but you’ve side stepped my point. In a data scarce environment, a candidate can only be measured by their notions, impressions and speculations, and you have Trump who is flippant about Americas nuclear policy. And that is only one of the examples that could be made.
What if Trump genuinely starts infringing on the rights of Muslim-Americans? What if he does start a trade war with China? What if he does create a deportation force and attempt to deport 11 million illegal immigrants?
Even the initiation of these policies could be unfathomably damaging to the country.
I’m simply saying that, Trump or no Trump, some predictions are just cheap, and predictions of nuclear war are especially cheap. They were already made of candidates who were less flippant and provocative but certainly equally relaxed in talking about they would relaunch, change and reconfigure nuclear policy.
Mangled the grammar in that lost one, sorry. “…they turned out to be off the mark with their predictions of how Bush’s temperament – or whatever they perceived to be the fuse for nuclear war contained in George W. Bush – would lead to nuclear war, and they have failed in their predictions.”
because when it comes to nuclear war, and thus the potential for utter species annihilation, that’s when things get interesting with regard to following orders and chain of command. We’ve avoided full-scale nuclear war a few times already, simply because some lower level captain decided not to follow orders and launch. It has always been a false alarm through faulty sensor equipment, or a communication was misunderstood or garbled or communication was temporarily lost. I don’t think it’s ever been tested that the actual prime minister, president or premier actually is saying to fire and an underling refused to carry out the order. I’m still not too worried about nuclear war with Trump, because no one person actually has control over that. They have the authority, but the actions are carried out by orders traveling all over the country to make those things happen, and all along that path, people can not follow orders realizing they are dooming the species.
Everything short of nuclear war, though, is perfectly within the realm of possibility and has none of those “everybody knows this is the end” safe guards. People follow orders. They do horrific things just because they were told to. Trump can destroy the planet without launching a single nuke.
Wow. Ben & Michael starting the show with their smugly joking how their the Establishment panel! “Everyone thinks WE are establishment, pro-Hillary? Ha ha, they don’t know we are not, just because Cenk has us on this show!” Fuck you, Ben & Michael. You know why viewers think you are pro-corporate $hill-bots? Because you SAY THINGS. You are defending Her at every turn! You belittle & say people who won’t vote for $hillary are voting for Trump! You are constantly saying Prez Trumpzilla must be stopped and we MUST VOTE for $hillary.
Fuck you. Michael, $hillary will NEVER & WILL NOT do anything about money in politics!!! You are wrong. SO WRONG. And the more you tell people who are pissed & are not voting for $hillary are “ill-informed” and crybabies & making an “unintelligent” choice … the more you piss people off.
When $hillary wins, which I am almost 100% confident the Establishment will make sure will happen, the Progressives & Corporate Dems will split. Clinton Dems will side with Republicans on almost every issue.
More War, TPP, MORE fracking, more & more….. wow. Aside from Wes correctly saying Obama is already bombing the shit out of everyone, and then M<ichael says, "Yes, but they are surgical strikes where some civilians may get hurt." Yup, keep joking about how you are NOT an establishment $hill-bot.
And just now, Ben the Muppet made an appearance. It didn't take long.
This is almost unwatchable.
I love Michael, but he dropped a string of nonsense all in a row at 55:38.
1: Hillary would be no more environmental than Trump. Yes, she acknowledges climate change exists, but she doesn’t care, and she never has cared. All she cares about is power and faustian bargains with donors.
2: Theres no reason to believe that Trump would elect a justice more or less corporatist as Hillary. Obama’s pick is as corporatist as you can get, and Hillary loves corporatism even more. If anything, the orange menace would elect some nonsensical clown that isn’t nearly as effective or interlinked with the systemic corruption.
3: The concept of “voting for Hillary and fighting her the day she hits the election” is nonsense. Hillary has the greatest personal political army in America, the backing of a major party, and the backing of corporate America. Trump has the backing of the KKK and B-list actors. One is significantly harder to fight than the other. People seem to believe that Trump will suddenly morph from an ignorant boob who doesn’t know what a ground game is into political powerhouse.
4:”A vote for Jill Stein is a vote for Trump” is a fallacy at best. To the low information voter, its equivalent to a non-vote(which there will be PLENTY of this election), but Stanford revealed a truth that changes the game. Stein and Johnsons backing are at least 3x larger than the polls say, if not more. The polls report independent voters at a block of 17% of the population, and Gallup reports independents at independents at 43% of the population. Factor in the fact that they also underreport people under 40, and both Stein and Johnson have already reached critical mass, above Trumpillary. All it takes is enough people to realize this, because more people would be enthusiastic to hit the booths for a non-sociopath or non-narcissist if they realized its winnable.
I don’t think these guys understand what a commercial for Jill Stein they are. The condescending tirade coming from someone known to dip into the actual matter toe-deep and a natural-born establishmentfile, is almost certain to galvanize more opposition. Good luck with that.
Total nonsense that Clinton isn’t as dangerous as Trump. She knows how to work the system, and worse, totally subvert the system for the next 30 years, while Trump can’t tie his shoelaces. Also, if we get Clinton today, we’ll have Adolf Hitler running on the other side in 8 years, because the hatred towards these establishment will be so monumental, they will be unstoppable.
Yes, now, Ben. The time to stop Clinton is right now. And we are the leaders, buddy. Bernie doesn’t tell us what to do.
Holy unsettled stomachs, Fatman. An Establishment Panel(tm) on a Monday of all days always makes me slightly nauseated. It’s a good thing Wes brought a few alkaseltzers.
Wow, that whole first hour was “a basket of deplorables”. Somebody else needed to be a reasonable counter to the disgusting no one else but Hillary talk because it looked like Brett was just not up to the task. The dismissive nature of both Michael and Ben is hard to take without someone pointing out to them that they are the ones who are misinformed and myopic. Please do not repeat this lineup again if at all possible!
Great show, nice to see a *realistic* discussion of this false argument that Jill Stein is putting forth, one that easily traps the idealistic. We all are going to pay for that in spades if they succeed in getting this sociopath elected.
Disclaimer ; to those saying this is the news you can’t expect mews that caters to you .
You are wrong TYT has not been an unbiased news source it never has been and recently it has been a news showndoctored to fit a Democratic Party narrative anyone that is critical thinking can decipher this Immediatly . In fact cenk has stated before that the show is catered to progressives so even on that front asking for a more progressive perspective in news coverage is justifiable since that is the product cenk and TYT sells .
I’m with you 100% . I’ve always said. To find out the true colors of a news media outlet and their hosts wait until election season . This election has exposed cenk , Ana and John as center left at most .
This is a vital moment for many who feel disenfranchised by the MSM/ lesser of the two evils rhetoric . The whole purpose of an outlet like tyt would be to see thru that facade and give you the actual progressive perspective ! A leftist perspective ! A perspective that yea Hillary is arguably better than trump but voting third party is encouraged and not talked down to like the main channel has done for months now .the Saddest part is that they are lecturing the most informed and well versed part of the electorate . Why not target he millions of people who simply don’t vote and the message wouldn’t be half as bad . But lecturing independent. / 3rd party voters the little that they are on the electorate is what hack like Ben and shure do to make themselves feel like they are speaking truths those thier smug attitude .
These hacks straight up say voting for Jill is a vote for trump completely ignoring the nuance of a democratic election process . A process that has more than just republican and democratic loyalists . Do they not realize this is a leftist network ? Are Ben and shure not aware many tyt members don’t identify as centerleft / or part of the democratic party. What of leftists like Steve and jimmy ? What about people to the left of them that see hacks like Ben and shure as puppets of a corporate party that has never fought for the everyday man . People that have never voted democratic besides the rare instances an actual progressive is running and instead either sit it or vote 3rd party ,? Are they the people that Ben and shure want to lecture ? Are they not allowed to take part in the democratic process and vote for who they identify most with?
If u listen to Ben and shure you would believe the current system was anything but democratic with : its either vote Hillary or your vote is wasted . What a sickening thing to say and act like you are dropping knowledge .
Hearing rhetoric like the one espoused by Michael shure is the reason people hate the MSM but here we are the leading ” alternative ” news outlet giving people like him a platform were a real progressive perspective is not there to counter those Democratic Party talking points
Democratic Party hacks and shills in Michael Shure and Ben
– making excuses for Hillary taking donor money and acting shady . This is why the public mistrusts her more than trump !!!! But even so she is still doing fundraisers with the requirement of co chairs to donate hundreds of thousands of dollars . If These hacks were so concerned of trump instead of looking over all of hillarys faults how about send out a message to her and her surrogates that doing million dollar fundraisers when trump is setting records for small money donation in the Republican Party is quite literally the worst presidential campaign strategy a candidate could employ . Specially against the faux populism of trump.
These hacks are part of the reason we have a situation like we have today. Had Michaels and Bens generation not been so complacent maybe a person like Clinton would never have been electable in a Democratic primary today . But no here they are in a mid life crisis waving their hands like cowards touting establishment talking points . Talking down to young millennial voters who are much more informed than these hacks were in their 20’s
What a bunch of tools and the worst part is that they dont even get paid the millions MSM media pundits get paid to sell out and wag their fingers at anti establishment young voters. These guys do it for free basically .
This leads me to my final point
TYT must thinkthey are bigger and more influential than they really are. It’s the only explanation for the MSM/ Democratic Party rhetoric they have been using since Bernie lost the primary. It’s understandable to not want a trump presidency but Tyt must think that if they started covering 3rd parties and actual progressive news it would help trump get elected ? So they dedicate most of the show to making fun of trump a candidate that doesn’t merit the majority of any news shows segments every month . Much less should the leader in alternative media be dedicating hours weekly on just trump on topics that are sometimes meaningless . Giving 3rd party candidates maybe 1 % coverage and when they do it’s often like today with Ben and Michael just shitting stein voters .
Today Ben literally compared steins campaign tactics to Tabacco companies propaganda !? Wtf Shure also goes ahead and made fun of stein for getting very little support in her last presidential run . Because she insulted shures adored candidate .
TYT has decided they weren’t going to step up and be the leaders of alternative media instead they fell in line and started ridiculous segments like loser Donald . Covered shallow topics constantly and given hacks like Ben and shure main show platforms to espouse even more Democratic Party talking points . Really Ben during the last month said the media shouldn’t cover 3rd parties because they are not polling high enough!!!!! What kind of establishment logic is that ?? Really on alternative media ? That goes unchallenged . Stuff like that used to be what cenk would make fun of and ridicule int the beginnings Of TYT. Tim canova came and went with barely a mention .
But really if someone in tyt management is reading this : if TYTs influence was so huge on the electorate and swayed an election then Bernie would have won the primary easy right ? . Is the influence of TYT statistically significant enough so that it merits constant loser Donald segments ? No sadly it doesn’t have that much influence . Specially if we consider TYT main audience are already highly informed millennial s and progressives who know more about trump than the average voter .
For the reasons and criticisms stated above I implore other members who feel like me that we somehow get in touch with TYT with a petition or something to see just how accountable this network is to its members since this is what they are always touting as . Maybe we can pressure the network to producing a third hour that is more progressive or more progressive shows because at this point the only shows worth my membership fee are aggressive progressive and Friday post games, old school . Other than those shows the main show has become msnbc lite which is something I don’t feel happy supporting .
So well said. Ben actually drove me crazy during the primary by constantly adding in “Yes but Hillary, she’s not evil” which always missed the point.
Steve said last week on AP with Jimmy that he gives Cenk a pass because it is truly honestly heartfelt that Trump is dangerous and could put our democracy in real jeopardy.
I agree with Steve. I mean Cenk always has and he should go with what he believes. It’s why I’ve been a member since 2006 or so.
But I think it’s shit, Ben and shure’s demeanor and what they say.
And the show does not even cover Jill Stein or Johnson and that is bad.
And like Jimmy always says it is remarkable and wrong to blame the voter for wins and losses. Voting for Nader was not why Gore lost (although he didn’t) Gore lost the election because of Gore.
Personally, I don’t understand the hesitation to call Hillary evil. You could easily call a person evil if they shook a baby for a cash reward. You could also call the person who paid the baby shaker evil, but you cant call the baby shaker innocent, or a victim, or a product of the system.
Hillary has shed the blood of thousands, ruined economies, local and foreign, suppressed worker rights and wages(like in Haiti), and shamelessly discards loyals and throws peers under the bus for her own self interest. Her life’s legacy is the removal of life and liberty for selfish reasons. If that isn’t evil, what is?
I think labelling tyt as centrist is taking things a bit too far.
They honestly want to see left momentum, but they just have different views about achieving that end. I disagree with their reasoning…strongly…but if Cenk was able to stomach corporatism, he would have stayed with the much larger paycheck. A bunch of people at tyt would, including Jordan, who was one of the first and few to report the statistical proof behind the primary election fraud.
The loser donald crap is Cenk is doing is simply being as passionate about his route as you are about yours. Feel free to passionately disagree, but take time to take a breather so extreme labels dont fly around and everyone becomes scattered. It’s a tough slippery slope to still passionately disagree with someone and still view them as someone on your side, but intellectuals need to develop comfort with those slopes and establish a reasonable stopping point.
You are not sending anyone a message. Nobody is listening to that message. You are not expressing progressivism by electing Trump. You aren’t remaining pure with your vote. Nobody gives a shit about your vote. There is only one of two things that will happen on November 8th. Trump will be elected or Clinton will be elected. Those are your only choices. TYT is not being progressive by encouraging you to cast a vote that makes you feel good about yourself. That would be irresponsible. If you want TYT to be a progressive fox news, where they just tell progressives what they want to hear, and ignore the truth, then you want something other than a news show.
If you wanted to elect Jill Stein, you should have started 20 years ago in a local election and built up a movement from there, like Kshama Sawant is doing in Seattle for Socialist Alternative. You don’t start with a president, because it doesn’t work. It never works. Even a billionaire like Ross Perot wasn’t able to do it, even in 1992 when there was no popular internet, and media was totally controlled. He used his own money and bought ad time all over the place to sell himself which was much more powerful in 1992 than it would be today, and even he couldn’t make it in, because the american people are mostly tuned out. They don’t know anything about politics. Half don’t vote. They get an occasional message from the candidate here and there, and they don’t really know the difference. That’s why name recognition is so huge. If you are just known by people, you’ve already won half the battle.
People who at this point still insist that they must vote their conscious should provide proof of how they think that will change things. How does your vote equate to actual change? Because Trump in the presidency will be actual change. If you’re not sure you’re not contributing to that, then you should have a reason you illustrate as to why you are risking it. Because otherwise it just looks like you want to vote for a savior to come fix everything for you, and that will never be coming. Fixing things requires us to act. There are no saviors coming. Not Bernie Sanders or Jill Stein or some magical person riding on a glowing unicorn. Even if the DNC was smart and they backed Bernie Sanders in the primary, and he won the primary, and he was currently 30 points ahead in all the national polls, we would still need to be working on fixing things today, the next day, election day and every day after that. We have to do it. Nobody else can do it for us.
I saw two Hillary Clinton commercials tonight on TV that sickened me. One seemed to extol the virtues of Ronald Reagan and tried to point out that Trump is no Ronald Reagan. And the other just showed a bunch of republicans endorsing her. Is that the candidate I should vote for? The one who brags about Republicans endorsing her and plays a flattering clip of Reagan and validates it. Maybe she thinks Reagan was great. After Nancy Reagan died, she seemed to recall an alternate history where Nancy Reagan was some pioneer in bringing attention to the AIDS epidemic. I understand why she’s doing it. She’s courting republican votes. She doesn’t seem to be courting mine though. But- I’m supposed to be “mature” and vote for a person bragging about Iraq War architects supporting her? Sorry, I’m not that mature. We had “hope and change” with Obama. I had hope, but didn’t get much change. I thought it was admirable to try to find common ground at first. I thought that common ground might be in the middle, but it has been creeping further right all this time. Do we concede more ground with Hillary Clinton? I may be naive, but I have more faith in the possiblility that a Trump presidency will be so ridiculous that a true progressive candidate could emerge and trounce him in 2020 than faith in Hillary Clinton supporters holding her accountable.
I can not speak for everyone but I can not trust, nor do I believe HRC will do a quarter of what she says, but even so, I align better with greens. I don’t like horserace voting, and go with who I align with better. That being said, I like hearing from others who do not agree with me, it helps me challenge what I believe and confirm it. If you’re voting for HRC thats fine, you have your reasons and I have mine for voting Jill.
And I live in a red state, so I admit I am safer with my choice than others. But there is no need to browbeat people into your choice reguardless what side you are on. It drives people away.
I’m sorry if you think people are “browbeating” but its called debating. I align more with Greens too, but I’m voting for Clinton because thats the reality of things on the ground, and I’m in a major swing state, and I can’t stomach Trump walking into the Oval Office, and sitting on the chair that Abraham Lincoln sat on
Bad ass first hour. Definitively will be taking part on not having a fascist dictator type in power and following Bernie’s advice. It is the only reasonable thing to do, especially since they’re so close.
Agreed, but it seems to be an unpopular opinion here. I don’t always necessarily agree with Ben, mostly during the primary season, but he made a lot of important and well-reasoned points this episode. Especially on the 2018 Congressional seats. I also appreciate that he’s usually able to acknowledge her poor decisions instead of immediately jumping to justify them like some other panelists. Providing context is fine, but not if you’re trying to use it as a means of avoiding calling a bad decision exactly what it is.
I was pro-Bernie and wanted him to win, and have NO love for Clinton’s foreign policy (Jimmy is usually pretty good at mentioning her major issues in this area), but the only feasible options available now are between her and Trump. The nastiness of Trump’s campaign and the disturbing fanaticism of his base is too much. Considering how he’s been closing the gaps in polls and ratcheting up his authoritarian talking points, I don’t want to take the chance of helping him succeed in the slightest. Even if he loses by a small margin,that sends an ugly message about the state of this country and where it’s heading. If Republicans view his ‘strategy’ as a successful one we’ll be seeing more and more of these clowns.
Stein is right to criticize both candidates, but she’s doing no one any favors by acting like Trump could be the preferable alternative here. To use her analogy – Trump is like choosing death by a badly aimed gunshot (one that’s still fatal, but takes you longer to die) and strangulation. He’s able to exercise long term damage through judicial appointments while also immediately pulling the trigger through issuing disastrous executive orders within his first week. You can’t even conclusively call the cause of death because there are so many equally likely factors that could have done it. And this is without even getting into the irreversible kind of loss he’d facilitate with his lunatic position on climate change. Hillary’s an unfavorable candidate for a number of reasons, but she at least has the basic capability to appoint qualified people as judges and believes that climate change exists. Trump has somehow managed to swindle enough bitter, uneducated, xenophobic, and racist supporters to form a fanatically committed and fact-averse base that encourages him to say the kind of vile things that would have gotten any other candidate eliminated on the spot. Four years of that gutter trash level of public discourse becoming the new standard? Pass.
People who have (understandably) serious issues with Clinton should donate time and money to campaigns for local progressive candidates, groups like WolfPac, environmental protection organizations, anti-war lobby groups, etc. Clinton weasels around her words a lot to avoid alienating corporatists and disaffected ‘moderate’ Republicans, but she’s been shown to buckle to pressure (especially when money’s involved) and “evolve” on issues when they are either politically safe to adopt or risk becoming a serious threat to her campaign if she refuses to do so. If nothing else, it shows she’s the type of person who can and has been influenced to move in a more positive position through external pressure. Can’t hurt to give a hand to the groups that help to force that kind of pressure.
I think a Clinton centric show might be an answer. Or more centrist centric anyway. “The Realist Experience” or something? Since of course you’re not ignoring your very liberal base in terms of having the “Aggressive Progressive” show, which I’m extremely thankful for, even though I’m #NeverStein.
I don’t understand half the comments here about Ben and Mike here. Most people are just saying they’re shilling for Hillary, but these folks don’t seem to realize the point those two are trying to make. Based on polling, Jill Stein 2 months before the election, is worst off than Bernie before he started his campaign run. Think about that. In a year, Bernie got close to half the country in polling. He went from 6% into the 40s. Jill Stein is ranging from 3-5%. How does that sound plausible to anyone? If you want to vote for her sure, but don’t go around disparaging people for making a really good argument against it. Considering her and Gary Johnson are looking to take about 11-15% of the vote and narrowing the margin between Trump and Hillary within 1 point in some cases, the assumption that a vote for her is a vote for Trump is not implausible. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_clinton_vs_johnson_vs_stein-5952.html
Excuse my language but, kindly fuck off with your “…learn to listen to those who have this country’s best interests at heart…” Learn to listen?!! All we do is listen to people freaking out over a possible Trump presidency (the real issue may very well be a PENCE presidency- and trust me, I for one, am absolutely terrified of that possibility as a member of the LGBTIA community and as someone with a spouse of Mexican heritage) and all we are saying is we refuse vote out of fear for someone to prevent another someone from reaching the White House.
Also, most importantly, please stop talking down to those of us who have a different opinion about “what’s best for this country.” You may have well just typed, “KNOW YOUR ROLE AND LET THE CORRUPTION PERPETUATE!”
Yes, KNOW YOUR ROLE. As I see it, your role is to do what is best for the country. And that, right now, is to prevent Donald Trump from becoming president. A Trump presidency would not stop the corruption. I don’t think you believe that.
I wanted Bernie also, but he is out now so we have to go for second best. I too am a member of the LGBTIA community. Hilary came out in favor of marriage equality. Late, sure, but she did it. That is one big difference. Have you listened to Hilary’s speeches or learned her poistions? As a Democrat, she is for inclusion for everyone. Yes, the contributors are a big problem. It’s up to us to make sure she listens. We have to keep up the pressure.
Trump would only take us backward. Why would he listen to anyone but the people who voted him into office?
Cheryl, HRC isn’t even second best for millions of voters, you want to vote for HRC have fun but your not going to scare the rest of us to vote. She will never listen, she’s a dixiecrat and you will be continually screwed by the corporation and Wall Street that will never care about your welfare. Her speeches are all over the place and the only thing HRC cares about is power and money.
Graymouser, again, if you think that Donald Fucking Trump is going to be any better, in fact not put this country in a hole that it may never get out of, you are in some kind of dream world. Yes, I am afraid of DFT, but it’s a rational fear based on fact. If you see a disaster coming you have to do something to try to stop it or at least mitigate it. I will not have fun voting for Hilary. I wanted Bernie, but she is second best of the 2 that can win. The others don’t have a snowball’s chance in hell. And they’ve never been tested. Give them access to the big donor money and see how they hold up.
Yes, she does want power & money. SHE IS A POLITICIAN. But she has shown an ability to bend to our will. Look at the Democratic platform. Right now she is trying to get elected and thinks she has to pander to the right. It’s the tried and true way of going back to the middle after the primary. We have to show her that we are just as determined and powerful as the right. Then she will have to listen. But that is where the left has always fallen down on the job.
But no matter how many times it is explained, those of us who see the handwriting on the wall are just seen as shills and tuned out. I always thought that was a trait of the right wing conservative, but I now see that it can be universally applied.
This is the fucking News people, YOU SHOULD NEVER EXPECT YOUR INFORMATION SOURCES TO CATER TO YOUR VIEWS! Seriously, that makes you no better than a FOX News, or an MSNBC viewer.
But they are right, we as Americans vote on issues that affect more than a billion people, throughout the world. We don’t have the privilege of “voting our conscience,” because we are not a Party-Representative voting Democracy for Legislative positions! It’s just the way the Constitution is written, and guess what! It’s only been written once! The US is not only the first country to lead with a Representative system, or this modern age, but is also the only one who hasn’t had their Constitution fall apart, and have to start over 15+ times. Why? Because voters CANNOT always be trusted, when they are not education and informed enough. It’s a simple as that.
So yes! Voting for Jill Stein is a vote for Trump! And if “voting your conscience” allows for us to commit tons of war crimes, because the President does have unbelievable access and leeway in modern day Foreign Policy, then go right at it! But don’t you dare bitch when we are set deeper into perpetual warfare, our economy tanks, as all NATO allies decide to cut Trade Deals with the US, as well as increase Tariffs because we’re acting like a bunch of fucking jack asses, killing women and children everywhere Trump feels like it! Our votes impact the whole word, this isn’t a meaningless French President, or a Spanish Nationalist Prime Minister… Those people are kept in check by the our President, but no one can keep our President in check when his platform is clearly Authoritarian, and the people still elect him because so-called “Progressives” are unwilling to compromise and bite their tongue, in order to actual get us somewhere better, instead of making us regress deep into a hole we will never get out of. I hope you love that student debt, because you’ll be defaulting, you’ll be broke, and who knows, you might end-up getting drafted. So vote stupidly if you want to, my 8 years of service are up, but that blood will be on your hands, and there most definitely will be a ton of innocent blood if he is elected. Including minorities here, since he incites the worst people to commit violence for some dumb shit.
This hour was absolutely infuriating. I have been growing more and more irritated with Michael Shure over the past 15 months. While I love Ben, I find it impossible to enjoy watching him commentate when Michael is there, encouraging such a narrow minded view. I don’t think Jimmy Dore is even close to being 100% correct on everything he talks about, but he sure as shit has a better grasp on the insidiousness of the establishment and Clinton. TYT, please do a better job of having a balanced panel (especially when Shure is on) so that those who may not be as informed politically can at least be made aware there are differing opinions on issues.
I’m completely disgusted with what I just watched.
You are HI-larious because you think that Trumpzilla means more war, when $hillary is the one NeoCons are backing. $he is making defense ontractors giddy because of all the bank they will be making when $he is prez. $hillary is a guarantee we have MORE “interventions” around the world.
Also, to think $he gives a shit about American jobs (other than CEOs) you are completely clueless.
TPP is a disaster for this country, every country & the planet. Game Over on Climate Change (altho I suspect it is already).
TYT obviously has several members who are not able to use logic. All of the above commenters are just as bad as the “deplorables”. You listen to those you agree with and those that you don’t are somehow shills. REPUBLICANS ARE AND HAVE ALWAYS BEEN BIG FAT LIARS. You can’t believe a word that comes out of their mouths, including the words “and” and “the”. Do not believe everything you hear about Hilary Clinton. She is far from perfect, but has had so many lies told about her in the last 25 years that anyone who hasn’t been around for longer than that doesn’t know otherwise. AND YOU ARE BUYING IT! Democrats lie too, but like traditional politicians have always done. A thinking person should be able to tell the difference.
Hillary Clinton is a Democrat and that should count for something – Democrats just believe in better things in general. Yes, they are corporate, but not like the Republicans. They have the potential to still be reached. THE REPUBLICANS SOLD THEMSELVES TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER LONG AGO.
I’d say to hell with all of you, but I have to live in the country that you would allow to be governed by Donald Trump. PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, learn to listen to those who have this country’s best interests at heart before it’s too late.
Well considering how your voting system works, if you’re in a swing state then yeah it kinda is the same. If you want to be able to be able to vote your conscience and not have it be “wasted” then campaign to change the system to preferential voting. Until then, ignoring the limits of the current process – while obviously principled, I adore Jill n hate Hill too – is pretty dangerous.
There is no way in hell I am voting for Hillary Clinton. She stole the nomination, had Bernie roughed up and threatened his wife. WTF are you guys doing shilling for Hill? Isn’t this a progressive website? If you continue to support that psychotic, Parkinson’s riddled criminal you are going to lose your audience. The DNC fucked up by shoving her down everyone’s throat. We wanted Bernie. We got a coughing hag, now it’s time to give the establishment the middle finger and vote Trump. He’s too lazy to actually cause any harm. He doesn’t even want the job. But I think he’s taken enough crap from the Clinton’s now he may actually go for the win. A vote for Hillary is a vote for the TPP and every other oligarchy wish list item. She’s toxic and she’s the democrats’ problem.
You guys are full of shit to say that casting a vote for Jill Stein is the same as casting a vote for Donald Trump. THIS is the Democratic establishment party line – way to go TYT. You all drank the damn kool-aid! Sick of this! Really sick of this!
Scavengers found two more bombs than the TSA to date. Someone get those guys a paycheck!
More seriously though I see a different lens; recently you covered how black schools are run like prisons and many leave school already primed to go straight to prison. Arabs, Sikhs and others get lumped in to “terrorists”, they get treated in a very ugly way – even when doing something like taking a photo of a bridge or a skyscraper gets them at least questioned or arrested by security or police. The correlation I follow here that if you treat a group of people like terrorists, committing terrorism becomes a basic part of their method of expressing grievances. Similar in its own way with the ‘lone gunman’ and school shootings usually committed by angry white men.
I’ve made a sweeping generalization here; but I see the violent expressions of different groups of people “seem” to have regularity. I have not studied it, but I believe that knowing how to solve this interpersonal crisis is simple and straightforward but actually getting everyone to understand their unconscious biases and be able to constructively work past them (for all sides) is going to be harder to solve than say, climate change – but worth every iota of effort put into it.
Very disappointing. Don’t ignore your base, please. At least get Jimmy Dore on, if not he & Steve O, if you’re gonna have both Michael & Ben being surrogates for Clinton. Very hard to watch for anyone not “feeling the her”. Still love you all though.
You´re right. Was ben an Mtv V.J. in the 90´s? Deja vu like during Rock the Vote. Mtv played Slick Willie on sax, just like Fox & CNN please Drumpf, free of charge. Mtv went so hard for Clinton, Chris Cornell was like DUBBYA TEE EFF?
Except for Jimmy Dore, they all are surrogates for Hillary Clinton anymore. I get it. I don’t want Trump to be president either. It’s that I’m absolutely not willing to ignore the stolen primary. If we do that, both parties see that they can cheat outright and rig an election and not many people give a crap. Did they just win the power ball or what? If we let this go, we have no right to call ourselves a democratic nation. We should not expect even the pretence of fairness in any election going forward. Anyone who gives their vote to Hillary Clinton puts their stamp of approval on election fraud. If one is okay with that, well, there’s nothing else I can say. It’s disappointing that TYT feels that hammering Trump day after day and either not reporting or very lightly reporting Clinton’s glaring problems is what their members want to see. We already know Trump’s awful. TYT continuing to tell me Trump went bankrupt is not a devastating revelation! Please, just be truthful about the two major candidates. That’s what I’d like to see as a member, and maybe some reporting about the two other presidential candidates as well.
It’s official, the neoliberal twats have taken over TYT. I can get this same garbage over at the gray lady with corporatists Krugman, Rosenthal et al.
You know I could respect your opinion if you weren’t so condescending and dismissive but you are, and that is so fucked up. You are pussies, you are terrified of Trump. Grow a set. Or four sets for this weak pathetic shivering in your boots panel. This weak shit just makes us want to flush Hilary down the toilet of history where she belongs even more.
Study the history of progressives, early 20th century, and you will see the same attitude towards our heroes who helped create the new deal. Dismissive assholes just like this panel but they fought the good fight nonetheless. Think FDR would have done his thing without the lefties fucking with him? Think again.
Jimmy, please, get something going. I want you to have my monthly money. I’m wasting it on this trash.
Ugh. Not watching again. if I want to hear Michael and Ben’ shilling for Clinton I can watch MSNBC and CNN. Wolf Blitzer and Chris Matthews are is super stars compared to them.
Comments
And what will Trump do for you?
Bravo. Well said
Wow. That was the worst 1st hour, ever!
Talk about Beating a dead horse repeatedly.
As a loyal TYT member please don’t do this again, I gained zero new info or perspective off of this hour.
Waste of battery life.(phone)
I sure can tell from all the comments that I am not alone. If we have no hope until 2020, lets stop talking about the election. What’s the point https://youtu.be/yTMXteZokXs
been begging them to cover something other than the election for months now. I guess if Trump wins, and Cenk didn’t spend every day talking about why he’s bad, he’d feel guilty.
“Stop talking about it” is not an option, but for this week at least, I am certainly much more interested in the leadership election of the British Labour party (Corbyn vs Smith) than in this one.
After reading some of the Hilary criticism on these comments I might have been mistaken when I said she deserves 90% of the criticism she receives. I’m dropping that down to 70%, lol.
As much of a problem we all have with Hilary, nobody is suggesting that she would be nearly as bad as Donald Trump right? That would be insane. The things Trump suggested doing about US Debt, Global Trade, Nuclear Proliferation, The global security apparatus installed since world war 2, Immigration, Terrorism, Climate change, and have been, for lack of a better word, stupid borderline insane. And yes vote for somebody other than Hilary is essentially a vote for Trump. It’s pretty simple actually. To think that Donald Trump couldn’t do a significant amount of damage in fours is not only a HUGE gamble, but not a thought pattern based in reality. Clinton deserves 90% of the criticism she receives and it drives me insane when Ben defends her against some of them, but we should all doing anything we can to avoid a Trump presidency. That’s a point that couldn’t be more clear.
It IS insane, but it is also what some people are suggesting. They are being totally irrational and thinking only emotionally about it, and saying that if you vote in a way that makes sense, you’re giving into fear. It’s a totally irrational opinion, so I’m not sure how to reach those people with reason.
Ive never had to fight the urge to unsub ( as in stop giving you money each month), from TYT until this episode of the show.
Am i watching CNN? With that a vote for Jill is a vote for Trump bullshit?
Our vote could never count more, that is why it will be even stronger when it goes third party and we manage to get third party candidates to a strong 15-20% standing. Our goal should be to shatter this ridiculous idea that third party candidates cant win, so dont vote for them.
Its not your job to tell me that i am an asshole for not wanting to eat hilary clintons shit.
If youre going to have Ben Manc and Michael Shure on the panel you NEED to have Jimmy Dore on there to offset the passive Establishment stumping these two so often default into.
I completely agree on keeping balanced panels. It was often hard to take this panel seriously because of how tilted it was towards more centrist, establishment politics.
I love having Ben and Michael on the show – they give very good insights to how the establishment thinks, operates, and perceives things. Having those viewpoints presented is incredibly valuable, and is often useful in forcing the more progressive TYT panelists to fully think and talk through their opinions.
However, this felt more like watching MSNBC or CNN. I’m a TYT member because I love the political discourse that happens when the panel is varied. It forces me to think critically and form opinions based on all the information presented, rather than participating in the echo-chamber that makes up most “news stations” these days.
you have a point. I can’t stand the Hillary sycophant stuff. If the only answer is “hold you nose and vote for her”, then lets just stop talking about the election. What’s the point, we are gonna get fucked, only choice is Hillary might, or might not, use lube, Trump won’t.
CNN doesn’t even acknowledge that Jill Stein exists. So, you’re not watching CNN. Voting for Hillary Clinton is not “eating hilary clintons shit”. It’s just a vote for one of the two candidates who will be president, or a vote against the person you would like not to be president. Jill Stein will not be president. Do you think she has a chance to win the election in November? If so, you’re delusional. if not, then what is the point of your vote? Is it a message to someone? It’s not electing anyone, so if it’s not a message, what is the point of it? If it is a message, who is it for?
So what youre saying is… i should only vote, if i know 100% my vote will lead to the victory of my choice of candidate?
Is that how elections work? Dont vote your conscious, words Hilary Clinton herself said – which i guess only applies to Republicans who are anti Trump, but only vote for sure winners, if you’re guy cant win, hold your nose and vote for a winner! Are you channeling Donald Trump right now?
I am the delusional one?
Id rather be a blip on the green party polls that gets them one step closer to recognition in the next 4 years, then go in and pretend that Hilary Clinton will do a FUCKING thing for me as a candidate if i simply swallow my pride, my moral indignation and my disgust towards her and write in her name.
The entire time he was running the media, the DNC, the RNC all shouted Bernie Sanders could not win. Should people not have voted for him because it turned out he did not win? Even though he went from talking to 30 people in a park, to 50 thousand people in a stadium, are you saying those people wasted their vote when they continued to support a candidate who “could not win” and did not win?
If you think the only time you should vote, is when you know for certain it will lead to the victory of your candidate, you are the one who is lost friend.
I’m not saying anything about some general “always do this” strategy. And I’m certainly not saying anything like this childish and simplistic characterization you’ve applied to me. I’m only talking about what you should do in this election right now, the one that’s in 40 days.
Bernie could have won the primary if he had started earlier, and if he had won the primary, he would be wiping the floor with Trump right now. But he was sure he couldn’t win when he started, due to the history of our elections that he’s quite familiar with. He wanted to be a message candidate at first, so that in the primaries, issues that are important would get discussed. Then, around December-January, the early poll numbers scared the shit out of the Clinton team, and they pushed hard on their superdelegates and their media surrogates and every coalition of community organizers and their big money donors, and Bernie still out fundraised her in February and March and April. If he had only known this would be the year voters had finally had enough, he could have won. And obviously, that would have been a great thing, and we would be in a much better position than we are now with stupid neoliberal Hillary Clinton. But even then, our work would not be done. There’s only so much any president can do. They need people to be active and pushing all the time.
If you want third parties, or just better parties, or if you want to have some kind of power invested in the people, you have to demand it, and voting is almost irrelevant when it comes to political action. Voting is just the icing on the cake once you’ve done the work. Once you’ve organized millions of people together, and raised someone up out of your own ranks, and their power and position comes from you, and they only got where they’re going because you and your group raised them up, and you’ve got coalitions of your organization at every level of government, then when it comes time to vote, you already have the numbers, and you vote for them. Just showing up after 4 years and voting for a third party does nothing. Democracy is work, daily work. You have to be constantly on task. It’s hard work, and the powerful will always be trying to stop you. It’s not fun. You lose a lot. It’s not satisfying and comforting. It doesn’t come with meaningless phrases like “I’m voting my conscience”. But it has the benefit of being effective. It’s how we’ve always done anything meaningful. Without active communists and socialists and budding labor movements in the 1930’s, there would be no New Deal. FDR was pushed. Without the progressive movement of the early 20th century, there would be no FDA and income tax. Taxes were obscenely regressive in 1912 and meat was filled with disease. The democrats wouldn’t even have become the party of labor had they not absorbed the issues of the progressive party, which was a third party at the time. Woodrow Wilson was a racist who ran on keeping us out of War, and then he was elected and entered WWI. But a whole bunch of progressive laws were passed as well. You don’t get everything you want immediately. In fact, sometimes you get exactly the opposite, but you have to go with your best choice of the choices you have. Unless you have a magic wand that’s going to make everyone decide to vote for Jill Stein on November 8th, she’s not going to win. So, nothing she stands for is going to happen by you voting your conscience. If you vote for Clinton, she will not want to do anything you want. You have to do the work to push her. You don’t have another choice where you just get what you want because you want it.
What a nice surprise to have both Ben and Michael on a Monday. Their views seem to be under represented lately.
YES, this. We need Ben and Michael more than ever.
This comment management system sucks balls. That was the best thing about the now aborted move to GBox. They used disqus. Way better than this. Anyway…
I think some of those voting for Trump (either directly or implicitly via Stein) partly want to see the world burn. It’s like driving slowly in the fast lane. Sometimes you just want to fuck with the world out of frustration or to feel some sort of power. That brief moment of control will quickly end when you get rear ended by a fast moving semi you won’t see coming. That’s what I think Ben and Michael are doing here. They’re essentially yelling out at the Mr Magoo drivers, “You’re going the wrong way!”…
Agree with everything you said, especially about the commenting system. Really annoying that the page reloads just to publish my comments…oh no here it goes ag-
FUCK THAT Ben Mankiewicz and Michael Shure! Both Trump and Clinton will be horrific for the environment and climate. Clinton will be more effective in getting her donors agenda accomplished while Trump is such a moron, he will get nothing done! I will never vote for Hillary! I will not reward her and the DNC for their dishonesty and corruption. I will vote for Jill Stein! We need #MoreDore!!! No more establishment apologists!!!
I knew Ben could not get thru an Hour with going full-Muppet.
Also knew Michael would try to bulldoze everyone with his near-catatonic droning on about $hillary.
MORE Wes Clark …
Aggressive Progressive needs to have Wes Clark make a visit.
Also, Steve & Jimmy, Get Kshama Sawant to come on … or better yet, have her debate Michael!!!!!
Pu-LEEZE!!!! That would be epic … “I’d buy that for a dollar! ”
Michael Shure vs. Kshama Sawant!
Almost everyone who is highly negative in this comment section is bummed out that he didn’t get affirmation.
Fox News will give you the right-wing perspective, no matter if it makes sense or not.
Alex Jones will give you the uber-right perspective, no matter if it makes sense or not.
Other news shows which I don’t know much about will probably give you a moderate perspective, no matter if it makes sense or not, or a neutral perspective.
TYT is not supposed to give you a left-wing perspective no matter if it makes sense or not. TYT is supposed to give you the perspective that makes sense.
Which they did here. Kudos. Smart people saying smart things about subjects they are informed about. Good show.
No-one who said this panel was horrible made anything close to a comprehensive rebuttal of the arguments brought forth here. Because you /can’t/. Because the arguments /make sense/. Reality right now has a profound anti-Trump bias. Voting for Hillary Clinton is the right choice, no matter how terrible she is. Not doing it is the wrong choice.
Right now, Jimmy Dore is becoming the guy who will give you the most progressive perspective, no matter if it makes sense or not. Hope that changes.
“No-one who said this panel was horrible made anything close to a comprehensive rebuttal of the arguments brought forth here. Because you /can’t/. Because the arguments /make sense/. ”
I don’t think you read all the posts. Michael says that there will be more war, bombings etc with Trumpzilla. Sorry, but I said that $he would bring MORE war than even Obama … more “surgical strikes that do kill some civilians,” I believe is how Michael put it. Did you hear him sneak in that remark while Wes was talking about the incredible about of bombing Obama has already done. He just slid that in under his breath.
Tell me if this makes “sense” to you .. $he is a war-monger as evidenced by the company $he keeps, ala Kissinger, Negroponte & the Neo-Con crew who fully support Her views. She praises Kissinger as a trusted advisor. Defense contractors are doing cart-wheels at the thought of Her administration. More “Interventions” = More Bank for Her donors! I base my beliefs on Her ACTIONS, Her words and empty platitudes mean nothing.
And btw, $he doesn’t even give the empty platitudes anymore! $he won’t even PRETEND to support progressive values! $he quit that game and went straight to … “Vote for me, or you get Trump. Vote for me OR ELSE.”
***You may want to check out lewsipgj’s posts about Clinton triangulation & this being a referendum on the True Colors of Neo-Liberalism.
***Euroyankee also has some great points about how incredibly naive it is to think $hillary will suddenly “lean left.” She has no intention of doing so.
True, Jimmy gets a bit crazy when he gets on the $hillary-Parkinsons-train, but have you seen any of his videos about Kshama Sawant? I suspect not, as you seem to have discounted him as the type of Progressive who “only tells you what you want to hear.”
Above all I think your post sums up the generally tone of this Hour.
The Intelligent, Practical, Grown-ups who are ONCE AGAIN telling the Whiny, ill-informed & Naive Children to sit up straight at the table and eat their vegetables. STOP complaining! Take your medicine! You will understand when you are Rational Adults like we are.
Check out Kshama Sawant. Then tell me how anyone who will NOT vote for $hillary is the “wrong choice.”
Its not affirmation needed on the progressive angle, its balance. This was exactly mainstream media coverage [which is center left leaning on the democratic side], just until Ben’s “you have to vote Hillary and tell your friends” tirade. Then it was full on establishment fear monger democrats. I know these guys have progressive values, but get a little more balance in there.
Ben said Jill Stein is relying on supporters who don’t feel included in the political system, as if they are clinging to her because they don’t know any better. Every Jill Stein supporter I’ve ever met or talked to have been the most informed, most engaged and politically enthusiastic. It’s not like shes preying on disenfranchised little children.
Cornel West, Chris Hedges, Richard Wolff… some of the smartest people in this country are voting Jill Stein. Don’t patronize a section of Third party voters because you feel they are being taken advantage of.
The grass roots activists are “banding together” now. More than any other party, third parties as a whole are joining together and running protests everywhere. Every progressive legislation ever passed in this country has started at the grassroots and the third party level. Labor Unions, activists and third parties. And it doesn’t take as many people as you think, a couple hundred thousand people. You don’t think we can get that many people together against Trump, but we can against Hillary? Nixon was just about our last Liberal president and that was because of his fear from the activists. He passed more Liberal policies than anybody in the last 35 years.
You and the most adamant Hillary supporters know she will not stick to her progressive platform, and your answer is to Vote Hillary then push for their third party candidate in 2020? You’re discouraging us to do so now. How do you think that conversation will go in 2018? Or 2020?
One last note, I noticed anytime the subject of change or “banding together” comes in, Ben avoids including himself. I just wanted it known that if your going to let others do the leg work and the protesting for you, you should at least attempt to respect their decision to do so now.
tl;dr
Ben has it all backwards. Third party supporters aren’t disenfranchised and holding onto their both are bad “Tobacco Company” feelings. But if you keep beating down and discouraging the [majority of those currently protesting] and trying to change the country right now; Then, the result will be disenfranchised people who have no place in the political system. And they wont have the energy to campaign in 2020 because you don’t trust them now. Whats worse is you need these protesters to make change happen, yet blame everything on them.
It’s pretty hilarious that Ben is trying to stir up passion, Jimmy Dore-style, about the candidate that virtually no one is passionate about.
It’s like South Park put it: all of four people are excited by the prospect of voting Turd Sandwich over Giant Douche.
And another thing!!! Lol.
I am super happy about the Aggressive Progressives show, seriously great call.
That being said, tucking them into a corner is exactly what MSNBC tried to do to Cenk. Just saying…
Ugh, I found Ben and Michael to be even more nauseating than normal. If I wanted to hear how amazing Hillary is and how I’m a privileged brat for not wanting to vote for her, we’ll I would turn on tv.
Yes Trump is a bloated childlike fool who pretends to be a strong man. Hillary is a corporate insider who has sold us out time and time again. I am so tired of people telling me how to vote. Seriously guys… remember who your audience is. We watch TYT because we are sick of smug establishment corporatists.
I’ve been very disappointed with The Young Turks’ coverage of Jill Stein. They’ve had very little coverage of her on the main show, and when they do cover her, it is to criticize her. I really like Ana, but I was so disappointed when she regurgitated the smear campaign talking points against Jill Stein as if they were facts. I expected her and Cenk to have done their research. Why didn’t they fact check “statements” that sounded so ludicrous like they had done with the smears against Bernie? I wish Jimmy Dore had been there to set the record straight. I expect more of The Young Turks being alternative, independent media and all, and I wish progressive viewpoints like Jimmy Dore’s and Steve Oh’s hadn’t been, for the most part, relegated to a separate show one day of the week. Throughout the #LoserDonald segment, Cenk has made it clear that time and time again Trump is utterly incompetent. I’m sorry, but I’m not afraid of what he might do if he gets into office. He can’t manage a single business, let alone the country! I’m more afraid of what Hillary will do if she gets into office, because she actually is competent, and if she’s another Obama then I am afraid of what will continue, not hopeful of what little change she may or may not have to offer progressives.
I just have to say that in regards to this first hour, I am disappointed and conflicted about how I feel. I do not reject hearing others opinions about the election in anyway, and I am not here to only get my own perspectives covered. (Some coverage would be nice, actually.) But I do have to say that the condescending, berating and talking down to the audience makes me question why I pay for membership. I don’t watch TYT to be put down, chastised and disrespected.
This election is not merely a referendum on Trump.
It is also a referendum on Clintonian triangulation, neoliberalism, empire, and Wall Street, to name a few.
How ridiculous a position, to seriously justify ignoring half of the reality: “ignore Clinton and make this a referendum on Trump.” In effect: “ignore the snake that’s biting you by focusing on how great it feels that the tiger isn’t biting you.”
Gentlemen, this is what we call “desensitization”. You think we’re in danger of “normalizing” Trump, when the more pertinent danger (for already-sane people) is normalizing Clinton.
Also, Michael states that within our existing two-party system the Democrats would be the only party likely to change the system to allow for 3rd parties. Sure.
But what if they refuse? What if they refuse to make the legislative changes, e.g. introducing instant-runoff voting, and furthermore block, stall, and ignore such legislation? How is voting them into power, over and over and over again, ever going to change this?
It won’t. The only way to change them is to exert POWER over them. The primary electoral power we have is the power of our vote. Therefore, myself and many others are now withholding ALL FUTURE VOTES FOR DEMOCRATS until they achieve (or demonstrate sufficient interest in achieving) ranked-choice voting in every single state.
Use your big brain, Mike. Power concedes nothing without a demand. We demand that they fix our broken electoral system BEFORE they can have our votes again. They’ve had every opportunity in every election; they never fix the system but – every four years, without fail – they resurrect the same tired arguments that we can’t change our voting behavior until we fix the system.
How many more elections of the two parties arguing the “spoiler effect” yet never doing anything to change the situation, until you realize that you’re being duped?
RIGHT ON. I find people like Mike to be incredibly naive. In 2015 Bernie Sanders came out of nowhere. Clinrton and the DNC didn’t see him coming until it was too late. So what did they do? They CHEATED.
If Clinton wins, she will have the power of the incumbency. And she will have the legitimacy of the incumbency to justify even more blatant and unabashed favoritism by the DNC. Anyone who thinks that there could EVER be a viable progressive opposition to Hillary in 2020 is being incredibly naive. Look how the Clinton supporters – paid and unpaid – treated us this time round – and imagine the vicious vitriol and violence the Clinton cadre will unleash on anyone who dares to even question the dear Leader, the venerated incumbent, the first female POTUS. You think charges of sexism were overblown this time around? Wait until we dare to criticise the first woman in the Oval Office.
Another, equally naive position is to believe that Hillary will somehow listen to the Left once she is in office. That we Progressives will somehow, magically, have more sway over Hillary once she has won the Office. Hillary is going after Republicans to get their votes – she is not coming after Progressive votes. It is sheer folly to think that once she has seized the levers of power she will suddenly turn away from those Republicans and centrists whose votes helped her win, and instead seek to win the approval and support of the Progressives that she is currently shunning.
Mike and Ben make the point over and over again that we should oppose Trump NOW. That we have the most leverage NOW. How can they then think that we will have MORE leverage once Clinton has achieved her ambition and become President?
No – Hillary must NOT be allowed to win. If she does, we will be condemning ourselves to decades of centrist corporatism and corruption, play-to-play politics on a global scale, and more, much more war.
> How can they then think that we will have MORE leverage once Clinton has achieved her ambition and become President?
Aw, they don’t care what happens past that point. Ben and Mike will be treading softly-softly for eight years while Clinton implements a moderate-Republican program.
Are we supposed to believe that the both of them will become progressive firebrands as soon as Clinton secures enough electoral college votes? It’s just not going to happen.
“Michael states that within our existing two-party system the Democrats would be the only party likely to change the system to allow for 3rd parties. Sure.”
Good use of sarcasm. The fact is, power does not relenquish power willingly. Anyone who suggests that “Dems are more likely to…” is incredibly naive. Including Michael. I think he’s just so set in his grove that he cannot see anything outside his narrow scope. Like many “party loyalists.”
It makes no sense for Cenk to belittle Trump as a numbskull bumbler incompetent fool, and simultaneously say Trump is the greatest danger to our democracy. No, that honor goes to Hillary Clinton. She is smart where Trump is dumb. Though she often tells stupid, obvious lies, she also can tell fairly convincing ones when she’s working the right crowd with the right script. When she’s on her full sociopathic game, her lies can fool smart people, too. That also makes her more dangerous.
President Trump will stomp and flail his arms, but he’s likely to cause more problems for Republicans than Democrats. Hillary will cause more problems for Democrats than Republicans, because her preferred world-view is more Republican than Dem. She is a Neocon-Neoliberal, and Queen of Wall Street and the Corporate Oligarchy.
I think we’d survive 4 years of Trump, then elect a real progressive in 2020. I don’t think our democracy is as likely to survive a Hillary Clinton presidency. I truly don’t.
This panel sucks. How about some progressive balance? You stuck Jimmy on a members only show on Thursdays, and fill the main show with the HRC brigade!? Keep it up, and lose members .you can’t have Ben and Mike in together without a counter pont, otherwise the progressives in the audience just get yelled at by the fear police. Knock it off!!
I enjoyed the show and the discussion about Stein’s comments. I just wish people had used their voting power to vote Bernie in rather than using their voting power after the fact to keep Trump out. I get that we are passed that point but I don’t see why youngsters would engage at this point when they have no one to vote FOR.
55:00 to end, you either agree with the position put forth by Wes, Michael and Ben or you don’t.
You’re entitled to your opinion, all opinions are not created equal, caveat emptor.
Well, most people here don’t agree with that position. I guess they go by the superior, more powerful and more persistent motto Semper Ardens (which is Latin for “always burning”).
most people certainly do, 3 of 4 hosts in this hour (probably 4, Brett didn’t answer the question he asked) I suspect that reflects the view of a substantial number of members, not the two dozen who comment
caveat emptor was an admonition, no motto
It might be an admonition originally, but “caveat emptor” is now most definitely the motto of the Clinton camp. The only motto they have, or will ever have.
I remember that 80% of TYT viewers said “Never Hillary” to the one poll TYT conducted themselves during the primaries. That was June. Even if the 80% has shrunk by now, do you really think that it’s now a minority?
Incidentally, voting has always kept going on that Youtube poll, and it now stands at 83% “Never Hillary”. It’s not a scientific poll, it might not mean much, but…there you go.
I’ve never voted in a TYT poll, I don’t watch TYT on Youtube.
I suspect both statements are true for the majority of 25K members.
A vocal minority is still a minority.
I find Ben’s and Michael’s white privileged mansplaining of everything completely off putting. What a couple of arrogant and condescending fellows they are! Notice how they interrupt and expect it always to be about their opinions. Really find them tiresome. Ben is really good on TCM, by the way, but if he’s on All-star Tuesday, count me out.
The more I see of Wes Clark, the more I like him. I think he was spot on with the problem of Hillary’s campaign. The dems are ignoring the real problems of the people of the country while Clinton goes on extended money-raising jaunts with the very people/corporations/industries that are causing the problems for the rest of the people of this country. Somehow they seem to think we won’t notice! I disagree with Ben that she needs to continue to raise “millions and millions” of dollars. If she would genuinely appeal to the people, she could raise money in small donations from individuals – you know, those people she’s supposed to represent? Or she could use her own fortune ala Trump. She’s running out of time and fucking up badly.
I do agree that Donald Trump would be a disaster for the country and the world. I would never vote for him and, if I didn’t live in CA where Hillary is sure to win, I would vote for her, though it would pain me to do so. Anyone who lived through the Bush Jr. years must surely understand the chance we are taking and the stakes are even higher now. Yes, Hillary is a horrible candidate, but her presidency will do far less damage than Trump’s. He is fucking uncontrollable; she at least has some sense though she must be made to heel to the will of the people, thug that she is.
I would like to thank TYT for its service. Without them I wouldn’t be voting for Jill Stein this election. A matter of fact, I would not be voting at all.
I definitely appreciate TYT, the propaganda machines are just mind numbing. However, the balance was a bit missing tonight. My wife turned me on to Dr. Stein after it became clear that Bernie had taken too many stabs in the back by the DNC establishment. She is a very impressive with her capabilities on presenting her platforms, especially when she is interviewed by hostile hosts. I have seen her consistently hand their heads to them and would love to see Shure and Mankiewicz man-up and try. Watching the spit flying out of their mouths whenever Stein’s name is mentioned has become difficult to watch.
Yikes! This panel should be called Neo-Lib Lectures
A lot of ppl dislike Ben and Michael, I’m not one of them. While I don’t agree with most of what they say, I do appreciate their views Bc it forces me to look at things from a different angle.
It is pretty obvious that HRC is in a shit storm and that she needs the help of progressives, millennials, and now some polls show she is lacking in the Hispanic vote as well.
I have been watching TyT for a little over a year now and I have learned MANY things. 1. The majority of the country is more left than center. 2. We are literally running out of bombs bc we shoot first and ask questions later. 3. Our entire government is for sale. 4. We imprisson more ppl than any other country in the world. 5. Those that we imprisson are predominantly minorities and for non violent offenses. 6. If your rich, you can literally get away with murder. 7. If a profit can be made from sufferage, it will happen. 8. The “war on drugs” was a ploy to lock up minorities and hippies so they don’t vote. The list goes on.
So with all this new information that TyT has armed me with, I simply can not vote for the party who has been in power for the past 8 years and done nothing about the above facts. Obama promised us (the country) Change. Where is that change? I see change for the worse, not for the better. We still assert our military in areas we are not wanted. We still kill innocent ppl by the thousands while claiming we are bringing freedom. We still lock up (for profit) thousands of our citizens and strip them of the right to vote. We still have food deserts in the richest country in the world. Federal minimum wage is still the same. You can still buy our government. Etc etc.
So the argument that HRC will somehow accomplish the things that Obama couldn’t/wouldn’t, just doesn’t make sense to me. Many would argue that the Repubs are why these things didn’t change. Obama had the congress, didn’t change a damn a thing. The judge argument, Obama wanted to appoint Garland, a moderate. Yet you want me to believe that HRC would appoint progressives. TPP will be passed in a lame duck session. Yet I’m supposed to believe that she will do what the people want once she is in office? Every 4 years it’s the same story. Vote for me Bc I’m not them. In another 4 years, it will be the same again, no matter who wins this time.
If Trump wins, the only ones at fault are the Dems. We gave them 8 years and in return we didn’t get “change”, we got more of the same shit wrapped in a different package. That fact is why Trump is doing so well. So maybe instead of yelling at voters for not “falling in line”, you should yell at the Dems for not doing the job we elected them for. The time of Dems coming out and pandering every 4 years then going about their usual establishment politics is over. It’s their fault for not seeing it and reacting.
old trope, long discounted
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/02/15/a-long-list-of-president-obamas-accomplishments-with-citations/
http://theweek.com/articles/597635/extraordinarily-complicated-successes-president-obama
This panel should be called the Voices of Reason. YES, NOT NOW! I totally agree that there is a time and place for everything and if you can’t say anything good about Hillary RIGHT NOW, then DON’T say anything at all. The day after she wins the presidency, GO RIGHT AHEAD, PLEASE force her to pursue a progressive agenda…. I will support you 100%. I am still a Bernie supporter and always will be BUT I realise that a protest vote only risks loosing the ability altogether to protest under a Trump regime. If he wins there is a good chance that he will also have the House, the Senate…. AND his appointments to the Supreme Court will change the laws of America against US progressives for decades to come… and thats only if we don’t slip into some sort of Trump dictatorship and/or civil war. The damage done will set back any Democratic, never the least progressive, agenda for generations. People argue that if Trump wins “it will destroy the Republican party.” To that I say, yes it might destroy the party but also the country along with it. He has brought about so much damage already. Is it worth it? I really wish that Michael, Ben or Wes be put on the Dore Unhinged Show (aka: Aggressive Regressives) to add some balance to Jimmy’s arson and slander. It is time get past our feelings on the current situation and logically do what we have to do in order to keep the advancements that we have today. So YES! NOT NOW!
too sane, your opinion will be subject to derision
Apparently you think Steve is unhinged as well, since he is also on AP and agrees with most everything Jimmy says, albeit with a more laid-back delivery. “Aggressive Regressive?” it seems $hill-bots, Obama apologists and “Centrists” are the ones who are regressing. Back to the good ol’Goldwater-Republican days! Yippee Skippee!
Have you even heard the argument that Prez Trumpzilla will UNITE Democrats?
You are telling me that Republicans can stop Obama from blowing his nose … can stop him from His Right to appoint a Supreme Court Justice … but that Dems will not be able to stop Trumpzilla?
Trumpzilla will build a wall, kick out every Muslim, every Immigrant. Trumpzilla will control the media & reporting … oh wait, MSM already is controlled by their Corporate overlords!
You actually believe that the Corporations, the Establishment, the Oligarchy will ALLOW Trumpzilla to do A N Y T H I N G that they do not approve of? Really? Mr. America-Great-Again? They will love him as their new spokesman!
BUT you say Progressives will be able to fight $hillary, Corporate Dems & Republicans? The Establishment? THAT scenario is rational? That scenario is the more plausible?
It’s incredibly difficult to take you seriously with the dollar signs and name-calling. This is what I expect from the commentariat of Breitbart or The Blaze.
Interesting you focus on the visual without addressing any of the substance.
This is what I would expect from someone whose name indicates they live under a bridge.
The only “wasted vote” is one cast for a person you don’t believe in. I will follow Hillary’s advice in November and “Vote My Conscience” — which means I will NOT vote for Hillary Clinton.
We already know that “independents” outnumber people registered either Democrat or Republican. Now, consider this: come November, what percentage of the votes will be AGAINST a candidate, not for one?
You can start with a half dozen “against” votes, as declared by Cenk, Ana, John and others on TYT. They don’t like Hillary, but they are afraid of Trump, so they are casting their votes in a manner to be most effectively AGAINST the candidate they fear. OK. I don’t agree with their strategy, but I under stand it.
Now multiply that by… how many tens of millions of people? People who don’t like Hillary but they are voting against Trump. People who don’t like Trump but they are voting against Hillary. I believe the number of “against” votes will be far greater than the number of “for” votes.
Now imagine that everyone who intends to vote “against” Trump or Hillary instead pairs up with their opposite, a voter who wants to vote against the other person. And they make a pact, that instead of cancelling out each other’s vote, they will instead vote Third Party.
You know what that would lead to? Third Party candidates would garner more votes than either Dem or Rep. It would be the END of both the Democratic and Republican parties as we know them.
Who knows, it could even lead us back to… democracy.
delusional
> Now imagine that everyone who intends to vote “against” Trump or Hillary instead pairs up with their opposite, a voter who wants to vote against the other person. And they make a pact, that instead of cancelling out each other’s vote, they will instead vote Third Party.
I see what you mean , and “vote pairing” is a totally legitimate attempt to improve a single-winner, effectively two-party system. But would you agree that such pacts should only be formed between two voters who live in the same state? Because if voter A lives in a swing state and voter B lives in a safe state, then the cancelling out of B’s vote has no likely consequences whereas the cancelling of A’s vote is potentially consequential. The point being, in that case the votes of A and B are not equal and therefore could not be considered to “cancel each other out” like that. If A and B both live in the same state, then clearly, this isn’t an issue.
Agreed. Given the innately suspicious natures of most humans, including me, I would go a step further — these pacts are not likely to work on an honor system involving total strangers.
Where I live, I know plenty of people on all sides of the political persuasion. Furthermore, because of the logistics of rural living, most of us vote absentee, by mail, on a permanent basis. This means we get our ballots weeks in advance. It would be a simple thing for me to arrange to meet with a Republican neighbor who doesn’t like Trump but who HATES Hillary, and we can mark our presidential votes together — each able to verify that the other person voted Third Party.
Of course, there is always the possibility that my neighbor could secretly go to the county registrat later, anul their first absentee ballot and request a new one… but that is more work and bother… hard to imagine anyone being THAT intent on garnaring one more vote AGAINST the person they don’t like the most.
I threw the idea out there on a whimsical note, but the more I think about it… this is do-able.
Under the current system, we are all held hostage to two dictatorial, non-democratic parties. How else can we end that bondage?
Perhaps you can simplify it even further, if you lean progressive and live in a solid red state, or lean conservative and live in solid blue, vote third party. No worrying about finding someone to cancel your vote or whatever. Your vote isn’t counting for much in those scenarios anyway, might as well send a message to the establishment that we are done playing those games. Spend more time convincing others to think about their vote in this manner and we might actually scare the parties into a ranked choice system.
Hey TYT, thanks for suddenly assuming everyone’s in the loop. Some of us don’t live in the US and don’t care for American news from other sources, so the usual introduction to every story on some attack would be nice.
Please give westley clark jr his own show
I’m down with that, but then let’s not have any complaints from anyone later about how half the Wes Clark show is about Russia and the Balkans (which, again, I would find acceptable).
If Trump wins I will be fighting with Democrats , If Hillary wins I have to fight against Democrats. I’d rather fight with them.
Can’t you just fight alongside progressives, regardless of who is president? Less tribalistic, more consistent.
^ this
I don’t think you’ve interpreted that correctly (it doesn’t mean “vote for Hillary”, for example). I’m only pointing out that there is a different way to frame/phrase the post-election part of that position.
I think I did. Policy over personality. Republicans almost always proceed in this fashion with their current “savior”, it is disconcerting when Progressives do the same.
I do think your formula leads to one conclusion in the current contest.
Libertarians are not Progressive. You can decide about the Green Party, their platform is significantly more “progressive” than Libertarians or Republicans. I do think it is safe to say that the Green Party is not siphoning off Republican votes.
Agree!
Yeah because that worked so well with Obama…
My issue with the debate about the differences between a Trump presidency and a Clinton one is people behaving as if it’s a simple distinction to make. There are compelling arguments on both sides and the correct answer is not clear because there are so many unknowns. It would be helpful if everyone concerned could begin from a position of acceptance that the choices here are complex. As I mentioned before the words of neither candidate are likely representative of what they would actually do. Additionally on the subject of appointing judges; yes Trump would likely appoint far right maniacs, but one could argue he’d rather select center-right old school republicans of the type Clinton would likely choose, for it’s highly optimistic to think she’d chose anyone truly progressive.
I noted Ben expressed the point that people should follow Bernie and not wait for leadership from another voice on this issue. I found that comment quite revealing of his deference to American political institutions and personalities which I believe compromises his analysis.
“There are compelling arguments on both sides”
“that’s just not right” – best Ben Mank voice
All of you are petty. This panel and TYT in general are critical of all candidates in the race, the reality is no-one got what they wanted in Sanders or Warren. Regardless of what happens, the only thing I think about is:
If Trump wins, and I fail to oppose him with every fiber of my being, and then he decides to use nuclear weapons in another country – am I responsible? I think yes.
I get it, we’ve been dealt a poor hand – now we need to put our efforts into playing that hand best we can. Support PROGRESSIVE movements. Like WolfPac?
> and then he decides to use nuclear weapons in another country
Not like we haven’t heard that one before. I remember a long list of people arguing in 1999 that the nuclear holocaust would begin within months of George W. Bush being elected president.
I think you are mistaking Trump and Bush as people of the same temperament. I don’t recall Bush ever saying that nuclear weapons are not on the table for even… Europe?
It is doubtful that anyone ever has a reliable handle on what the true temperament of any candidate is, prior to that candidate coming into office. Notions, impressions and speculations, but nothing reliable.
Secondly, if temperament is how we decide who can be allowed near nuclear policy, then the point remains: all those people in 1999 turned out to be off the mark with their predictions of how Bush’s temperament – or whatever they perceived to be the fuse for nuclear war contained in George W. Bush – have failed in their predictions.
Sure, but you’ve side stepped my point. In a data scarce environment, a candidate can only be measured by their notions, impressions and speculations, and you have Trump who is flippant about Americas nuclear policy. And that is only one of the examples that could be made.
What if Trump genuinely starts infringing on the rights of Muslim-Americans? What if he does start a trade war with China? What if he does create a deportation force and attempt to deport 11 million illegal immigrants?
Even the initiation of these policies could be unfathomably damaging to the country.
I’m simply saying that, Trump or no Trump, some predictions are just cheap, and predictions of nuclear war are especially cheap. They were already made of candidates who were less flippant and provocative but certainly equally relaxed in talking about they would relaunch, change and reconfigure nuclear policy.
Mangled the grammar in that lost one, sorry. “…they turned out to be off the mark with their predictions of how Bush’s temperament – or whatever they perceived to be the fuse for nuclear war contained in George W. Bush – would lead to nuclear war, and they have failed in their predictions.”
because when it comes to nuclear war, and thus the potential for utter species annihilation, that’s when things get interesting with regard to following orders and chain of command. We’ve avoided full-scale nuclear war a few times already, simply because some lower level captain decided not to follow orders and launch. It has always been a false alarm through faulty sensor equipment, or a communication was misunderstood or garbled or communication was temporarily lost. I don’t think it’s ever been tested that the actual prime minister, president or premier actually is saying to fire and an underling refused to carry out the order. I’m still not too worried about nuclear war with Trump, because no one person actually has control over that. They have the authority, but the actions are carried out by orders traveling all over the country to make those things happen, and all along that path, people can not follow orders realizing they are dooming the species.
Everything short of nuclear war, though, is perfectly within the realm of possibility and has none of those “everybody knows this is the end” safe guards. People follow orders. They do horrific things just because they were told to. Trump can destroy the planet without launching a single nuke.
Jimmy pull this up and yell at them I joined for aggressive progressive.
Wow. Ben & Michael starting the show with their smugly joking how their the Establishment panel! “Everyone thinks WE are establishment, pro-Hillary? Ha ha, they don’t know we are not, just because Cenk has us on this show!” Fuck you, Ben & Michael. You know why viewers think you are pro-corporate $hill-bots? Because you SAY THINGS. You are defending Her at every turn! You belittle & say people who won’t vote for $hillary are voting for Trump! You are constantly saying Prez Trumpzilla must be stopped and we MUST VOTE for $hillary.
Fuck you. Michael, $hillary will NEVER & WILL NOT do anything about money in politics!!! You are wrong. SO WRONG. And the more you tell people who are pissed & are not voting for $hillary are “ill-informed” and crybabies & making an “unintelligent” choice … the more you piss people off.
When $hillary wins, which I am almost 100% confident the Establishment will make sure will happen, the Progressives & Corporate Dems will split. Clinton Dems will side with Republicans on almost every issue.
More War, TPP, MORE fracking, more & more….. wow. Aside from Wes correctly saying Obama is already bombing the shit out of everyone, and then M<ichael says, "Yes, but they are surgical strikes where some civilians may get hurt." Yup, keep joking about how you are NOT an establishment $hill-bot.
And just now, Ben the Muppet made an appearance. It didn't take long.
This is almost unwatchable.
Props to you for $hillary. That’s solid gold.
I love Michael, but he dropped a string of nonsense all in a row at 55:38.
1: Hillary would be no more environmental than Trump. Yes, she acknowledges climate change exists, but she doesn’t care, and she never has cared. All she cares about is power and faustian bargains with donors.
2: Theres no reason to believe that Trump would elect a justice more or less corporatist as Hillary. Obama’s pick is as corporatist as you can get, and Hillary loves corporatism even more. If anything, the orange menace would elect some nonsensical clown that isn’t nearly as effective or interlinked with the systemic corruption.
3: The concept of “voting for Hillary and fighting her the day she hits the election” is nonsense. Hillary has the greatest personal political army in America, the backing of a major party, and the backing of corporate America. Trump has the backing of the KKK and B-list actors. One is significantly harder to fight than the other. People seem to believe that Trump will suddenly morph from an ignorant boob who doesn’t know what a ground game is into political powerhouse.
4:”A vote for Jill Stein is a vote for Trump” is a fallacy at best. To the low information voter, its equivalent to a non-vote(which there will be PLENTY of this election), but Stanford revealed a truth that changes the game. Stein and Johnsons backing are at least 3x larger than the polls say, if not more. The polls report independent voters at a block of 17% of the population, and Gallup reports independents at independents at 43% of the population. Factor in the fact that they also underreport people under 40, and both Stein and Johnson have already reached critical mass, above Trumpillary. All it takes is enough people to realize this, because more people would be enthusiastic to hit the booths for a non-sociopath or non-narcissist if they realized its winnable.
This. I could barely watch after 55:00.
I don’t think these guys understand what a commercial for Jill Stein they are. The condescending tirade coming from someone known to dip into the actual matter toe-deep and a natural-born establishmentfile, is almost certain to galvanize more opposition. Good luck with that.
Total nonsense that Clinton isn’t as dangerous as Trump. She knows how to work the system, and worse, totally subvert the system for the next 30 years, while Trump can’t tie his shoelaces. Also, if we get Clinton today, we’ll have Adolf Hitler running on the other side in 8 years, because the hatred towards these establishment will be so monumental, they will be unstoppable.
Yes, now, Ben. The time to stop Clinton is right now. And we are the leaders, buddy. Bernie doesn’t tell us what to do.
Holy unsettled stomachs, Fatman. An Establishment Panel(tm) on a Monday of all days always makes me slightly nauseated. It’s a good thing Wes brought a few alkaseltzers.
Wow, that whole first hour was “a basket of deplorables”. Somebody else needed to be a reasonable counter to the disgusting no one else but Hillary talk because it looked like Brett was just not up to the task. The dismissive nature of both Michael and Ben is hard to take without someone pointing out to them that they are the ones who are misinformed and myopic. Please do not repeat this lineup again if at all possible!
Great show, nice to see a *realistic* discussion of this false argument that Jill Stein is putting forth, one that easily traps the idealistic. We all are going to pay for that in spades if they succeed in getting this sociopath elected.
Disclaimer ; to those saying this is the news you can’t expect mews that caters to you .
You are wrong TYT has not been an unbiased news source it never has been and recently it has been a news showndoctored to fit a Democratic Party narrative anyone that is critical thinking can decipher this Immediatly . In fact cenk has stated before that the show is catered to progressives so even on that front asking for a more progressive perspective in news coverage is justifiable since that is the product cenk and TYT sells .
I’m with you 100% . I’ve always said. To find out the true colors of a news media outlet and their hosts wait until election season . This election has exposed cenk , Ana and John as center left at most .
This is a vital moment for many who feel disenfranchised by the MSM/ lesser of the two evils rhetoric . The whole purpose of an outlet like tyt would be to see thru that facade and give you the actual progressive perspective ! A leftist perspective ! A perspective that yea Hillary is arguably better than trump but voting third party is encouraged and not talked down to like the main channel has done for months now .the Saddest part is that they are lecturing the most informed and well versed part of the electorate . Why not target he millions of people who simply don’t vote and the message wouldn’t be half as bad . But lecturing independent. / 3rd party voters the little that they are on the electorate is what hack like Ben and shure do to make themselves feel like they are speaking truths those thier smug attitude .
These hacks straight up say voting for Jill is a vote for trump completely ignoring the nuance of a democratic election process . A process that has more than just republican and democratic loyalists . Do they not realize this is a leftist network ? Are Ben and shure not aware many tyt members don’t identify as centerleft / or part of the democratic party. What of leftists like Steve and jimmy ? What about people to the left of them that see hacks like Ben and shure as puppets of a corporate party that has never fought for the everyday man . People that have never voted democratic besides the rare instances an actual progressive is running and instead either sit it or vote 3rd party ,? Are they the people that Ben and shure want to lecture ? Are they not allowed to take part in the democratic process and vote for who they identify most with?
If u listen to Ben and shure you would believe the current system was anything but democratic with : its either vote Hillary or your vote is wasted . What a sickening thing to say and act like you are dropping knowledge .
Hearing rhetoric like the one espoused by Michael shure is the reason people hate the MSM but here we are the leading ” alternative ” news outlet giving people like him a platform were a real progressive perspective is not there to counter those Democratic Party talking points
Democratic Party hacks and shills in Michael Shure and Ben
– making excuses for Hillary taking donor money and acting shady . This is why the public mistrusts her more than trump !!!! But even so she is still doing fundraisers with the requirement of co chairs to donate hundreds of thousands of dollars . If These hacks were so concerned of trump instead of looking over all of hillarys faults how about send out a message to her and her surrogates that doing million dollar fundraisers when trump is setting records for small money donation in the Republican Party is quite literally the worst presidential campaign strategy a candidate could employ . Specially against the faux populism of trump.
These hacks are part of the reason we have a situation like we have today. Had Michaels and Bens generation not been so complacent maybe a person like Clinton would never have been electable in a Democratic primary today . But no here they are in a mid life crisis waving their hands like cowards touting establishment talking points . Talking down to young millennial voters who are much more informed than these hacks were in their 20’s
What a bunch of tools and the worst part is that they dont even get paid the millions MSM media pundits get paid to sell out and wag their fingers at anti establishment young voters. These guys do it for free basically .
This leads me to my final point
TYT must thinkthey are bigger and more influential than they really are. It’s the only explanation for the MSM/ Democratic Party rhetoric they have been using since Bernie lost the primary. It’s understandable to not want a trump presidency but Tyt must think that if they started covering 3rd parties and actual progressive news it would help trump get elected ? So they dedicate most of the show to making fun of trump a candidate that doesn’t merit the majority of any news shows segments every month . Much less should the leader in alternative media be dedicating hours weekly on just trump on topics that are sometimes meaningless . Giving 3rd party candidates maybe 1 % coverage and when they do it’s often like today with Ben and Michael just shitting stein voters .
Today Ben literally compared steins campaign tactics to Tabacco companies propaganda !? Wtf Shure also goes ahead and made fun of stein for getting very little support in her last presidential run . Because she insulted shures adored candidate .
TYT has decided they weren’t going to step up and be the leaders of alternative media instead they fell in line and started ridiculous segments like loser Donald . Covered shallow topics constantly and given hacks like Ben and shure main show platforms to espouse even more Democratic Party talking points . Really Ben during the last month said the media shouldn’t cover 3rd parties because they are not polling high enough!!!!! What kind of establishment logic is that ?? Really on alternative media ? That goes unchallenged . Stuff like that used to be what cenk would make fun of and ridicule int the beginnings Of TYT. Tim canova came and went with barely a mention .
But really if someone in tyt management is reading this : if TYTs influence was so huge on the electorate and swayed an election then Bernie would have won the primary easy right ? . Is the influence of TYT statistically significant enough so that it merits constant loser Donald segments ? No sadly it doesn’t have that much influence . Specially if we consider TYT main audience are already highly informed millennial s and progressives who know more about trump than the average voter .
For the reasons and criticisms stated above I implore other members who feel like me that we somehow get in touch with TYT with a petition or something to see just how accountable this network is to its members since this is what they are always touting as . Maybe we can pressure the network to producing a third hour that is more progressive or more progressive shows because at this point the only shows worth my membership fee are aggressive progressive and Friday post games, old school . Other than those shows the main show has become msnbc lite which is something I don’t feel happy supporting .
So well said. Ben actually drove me crazy during the primary by constantly adding in “Yes but Hillary, she’s not evil” which always missed the point.
Steve said last week on AP with Jimmy that he gives Cenk a pass because it is truly honestly heartfelt that Trump is dangerous and could put our democracy in real jeopardy.
I agree with Steve. I mean Cenk always has and he should go with what he believes. It’s why I’ve been a member since 2006 or so.
But I think it’s shit, Ben and shure’s demeanor and what they say.
And the show does not even cover Jill Stein or Johnson and that is bad.
And like Jimmy always says it is remarkable and wrong to blame the voter for wins and losses. Voting for Nader was not why Gore lost (although he didn’t) Gore lost the election because of Gore.
Personally, I don’t understand the hesitation to call Hillary evil. You could easily call a person evil if they shook a baby for a cash reward. You could also call the person who paid the baby shaker evil, but you cant call the baby shaker innocent, or a victim, or a product of the system.
Hillary has shed the blood of thousands, ruined economies, local and foreign, suppressed worker rights and wages(like in Haiti), and shamelessly discards loyals and throws peers under the bus for her own self interest. Her life’s legacy is the removal of life and liberty for selfish reasons. If that isn’t evil, what is?
I think labelling tyt as centrist is taking things a bit too far.
They honestly want to see left momentum, but they just have different views about achieving that end. I disagree with their reasoning…strongly…but if Cenk was able to stomach corporatism, he would have stayed with the much larger paycheck. A bunch of people at tyt would, including Jordan, who was one of the first and few to report the statistical proof behind the primary election fraud.
The loser donald crap is Cenk is doing is simply being as passionate about his route as you are about yours. Feel free to passionately disagree, but take time to take a breather so extreme labels dont fly around and everyone becomes scattered. It’s a tough slippery slope to still passionately disagree with someone and still view them as someone on your side, but intellectuals need to develop comfort with those slopes and establish a reasonable stopping point.
You are not sending anyone a message. Nobody is listening to that message. You are not expressing progressivism by electing Trump. You aren’t remaining pure with your vote. Nobody gives a shit about your vote. There is only one of two things that will happen on November 8th. Trump will be elected or Clinton will be elected. Those are your only choices. TYT is not being progressive by encouraging you to cast a vote that makes you feel good about yourself. That would be irresponsible. If you want TYT to be a progressive fox news, where they just tell progressives what they want to hear, and ignore the truth, then you want something other than a news show.
If you wanted to elect Jill Stein, you should have started 20 years ago in a local election and built up a movement from there, like Kshama Sawant is doing in Seattle for Socialist Alternative. You don’t start with a president, because it doesn’t work. It never works. Even a billionaire like Ross Perot wasn’t able to do it, even in 1992 when there was no popular internet, and media was totally controlled. He used his own money and bought ad time all over the place to sell himself which was much more powerful in 1992 than it would be today, and even he couldn’t make it in, because the american people are mostly tuned out. They don’t know anything about politics. Half don’t vote. They get an occasional message from the candidate here and there, and they don’t really know the difference. That’s why name recognition is so huge. If you are just known by people, you’ve already won half the battle.
People who at this point still insist that they must vote their conscious should provide proof of how they think that will change things. How does your vote equate to actual change? Because Trump in the presidency will be actual change. If you’re not sure you’re not contributing to that, then you should have a reason you illustrate as to why you are risking it. Because otherwise it just looks like you want to vote for a savior to come fix everything for you, and that will never be coming. Fixing things requires us to act. There are no saviors coming. Not Bernie Sanders or Jill Stein or some magical person riding on a glowing unicorn. Even if the DNC was smart and they backed Bernie Sanders in the primary, and he won the primary, and he was currently 30 points ahead in all the national polls, we would still need to be working on fixing things today, the next day, election day and every day after that. We have to do it. Nobody else can do it for us.
Great show guys, Please have Michael on more often so that he could debate with Jimmy :)
I saw two Hillary Clinton commercials tonight on TV that sickened me. One seemed to extol the virtues of Ronald Reagan and tried to point out that Trump is no Ronald Reagan. And the other just showed a bunch of republicans endorsing her. Is that the candidate I should vote for? The one who brags about Republicans endorsing her and plays a flattering clip of Reagan and validates it. Maybe she thinks Reagan was great. After Nancy Reagan died, she seemed to recall an alternate history where Nancy Reagan was some pioneer in bringing attention to the AIDS epidemic. I understand why she’s doing it. She’s courting republican votes. She doesn’t seem to be courting mine though. But- I’m supposed to be “mature” and vote for a person bragging about Iraq War architects supporting her? Sorry, I’m not that mature. We had “hope and change” with Obama. I had hope, but didn’t get much change. I thought it was admirable to try to find common ground at first. I thought that common ground might be in the middle, but it has been creeping further right all this time. Do we concede more ground with Hillary Clinton? I may be naive, but I have more faith in the possiblility that a Trump presidency will be so ridiculous that a true progressive candidate could emerge and trounce him in 2020 than faith in Hillary Clinton supporters holding her accountable.
I can not speak for everyone but I can not trust, nor do I believe HRC will do a quarter of what she says, but even so, I align better with greens. I don’t like horserace voting, and go with who I align with better. That being said, I like hearing from others who do not agree with me, it helps me challenge what I believe and confirm it. If you’re voting for HRC thats fine, you have your reasons and I have mine for voting Jill.
And I live in a red state, so I admit I am safer with my choice than others. But there is no need to browbeat people into your choice reguardless what side you are on. It drives people away.
I’m sorry if you think people are “browbeating” but its called debating. I align more with Greens too, but I’m voting for Clinton because thats the reality of things on the ground, and I’m in a major swing state, and I can’t stomach Trump walking into the Oval Office, and sitting on the chair that Abraham Lincoln sat on
Bad ass first hour. Definitively will be taking part on not having a fascist dictator type in power and following Bernie’s advice. It is the only reasonable thing to do, especially since they’re so close.
Agreed!
Agreed, but it seems to be an unpopular opinion here. I don’t always necessarily agree with Ben, mostly during the primary season, but he made a lot of important and well-reasoned points this episode. Especially on the 2018 Congressional seats. I also appreciate that he’s usually able to acknowledge her poor decisions instead of immediately jumping to justify them like some other panelists. Providing context is fine, but not if you’re trying to use it as a means of avoiding calling a bad decision exactly what it is.
I was pro-Bernie and wanted him to win, and have NO love for Clinton’s foreign policy (Jimmy is usually pretty good at mentioning her major issues in this area), but the only feasible options available now are between her and Trump. The nastiness of Trump’s campaign and the disturbing fanaticism of his base is too much. Considering how he’s been closing the gaps in polls and ratcheting up his authoritarian talking points, I don’t want to take the chance of helping him succeed in the slightest. Even if he loses by a small margin,that sends an ugly message about the state of this country and where it’s heading. If Republicans view his ‘strategy’ as a successful one we’ll be seeing more and more of these clowns.
Stein is right to criticize both candidates, but she’s doing no one any favors by acting like Trump could be the preferable alternative here. To use her analogy – Trump is like choosing death by a badly aimed gunshot (one that’s still fatal, but takes you longer to die) and strangulation. He’s able to exercise long term damage through judicial appointments while also immediately pulling the trigger through issuing disastrous executive orders within his first week. You can’t even conclusively call the cause of death because there are so many equally likely factors that could have done it. And this is without even getting into the irreversible kind of loss he’d facilitate with his lunatic position on climate change. Hillary’s an unfavorable candidate for a number of reasons, but she at least has the basic capability to appoint qualified people as judges and believes that climate change exists. Trump has somehow managed to swindle enough bitter, uneducated, xenophobic, and racist supporters to form a fanatically committed and fact-averse base that encourages him to say the kind of vile things that would have gotten any other candidate eliminated on the spot. Four years of that gutter trash level of public discourse becoming the new standard? Pass.
People who have (understandably) serious issues with Clinton should donate time and money to campaigns for local progressive candidates, groups like WolfPac, environmental protection organizations, anti-war lobby groups, etc. Clinton weasels around her words a lot to avoid alienating corporatists and disaffected ‘moderate’ Republicans, but she’s been shown to buckle to pressure (especially when money’s involved) and “evolve” on issues when they are either politically safe to adopt or risk becoming a serious threat to her campaign if she refuses to do so. If nothing else, it shows she’s the type of person who can and has been influenced to move in a more positive position through external pressure. Can’t hurt to give a hand to the groups that help to force that kind of pressure.
I think a Clinton centric show might be an answer. Or more centrist centric anyway. “The Realist Experience” or something? Since of course you’re not ignoring your very liberal base in terms of having the “Aggressive Progressive” show, which I’m extremely thankful for, even though I’m #NeverStein.
I’m gonna have sex with the comments section
I don’t understand half the comments here about Ben and Mike here. Most people are just saying they’re shilling for Hillary, but these folks don’t seem to realize the point those two are trying to make. Based on polling, Jill Stein 2 months before the election, is worst off than Bernie before he started his campaign run. Think about that. In a year, Bernie got close to half the country in polling. He went from 6% into the 40s. Jill Stein is ranging from 3-5%. How does that sound plausible to anyone? If you want to vote for her sure, but don’t go around disparaging people for making a really good argument against it. Considering her and Gary Johnson are looking to take about 11-15% of the vote and narrowing the margin between Trump and Hillary within 1 point in some cases, the assumption that a vote for her is a vote for Trump is not implausible. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_clinton_vs_johnson_vs_stein-5952.html
Boo this hour.
I love this panel. Great commentary and insight.
Excuse my language but, kindly fuck off with your “…learn to listen to those who have this country’s best interests at heart…” Learn to listen?!! All we do is listen to people freaking out over a possible Trump presidency (the real issue may very well be a PENCE presidency- and trust me, I for one, am absolutely terrified of that possibility as a member of the LGBTIA community and as someone with a spouse of Mexican heritage) and all we are saying is we refuse vote out of fear for someone to prevent another someone from reaching the White House.
Also, most importantly, please stop talking down to those of us who have a different opinion about “what’s best for this country.” You may have well just typed, “KNOW YOUR ROLE AND LET THE CORRUPTION PERPETUATE!”
Yes, KNOW YOUR ROLE. As I see it, your role is to do what is best for the country. And that, right now, is to prevent Donald Trump from becoming president. A Trump presidency would not stop the corruption. I don’t think you believe that.
I wanted Bernie also, but he is out now so we have to go for second best. I too am a member of the LGBTIA community. Hilary came out in favor of marriage equality. Late, sure, but she did it. That is one big difference. Have you listened to Hilary’s speeches or learned her poistions? As a Democrat, she is for inclusion for everyone. Yes, the contributors are a big problem. It’s up to us to make sure she listens. We have to keep up the pressure.
Trump would only take us backward. Why would he listen to anyone but the people who voted him into office?
Cheryl, HRC isn’t even second best for millions of voters, you want to vote for HRC have fun but your not going to scare the rest of us to vote. She will never listen, she’s a dixiecrat and you will be continually screwed by the corporation and Wall Street that will never care about your welfare. Her speeches are all over the place and the only thing HRC cares about is power and money.
Graymouser, again, if you think that Donald Fucking Trump is going to be any better, in fact not put this country in a hole that it may never get out of, you are in some kind of dream world. Yes, I am afraid of DFT, but it’s a rational fear based on fact. If you see a disaster coming you have to do something to try to stop it or at least mitigate it. I will not have fun voting for Hilary. I wanted Bernie, but she is second best of the 2 that can win. The others don’t have a snowball’s chance in hell. And they’ve never been tested. Give them access to the big donor money and see how they hold up.
Yes, she does want power & money. SHE IS A POLITICIAN. But she has shown an ability to bend to our will. Look at the Democratic platform. Right now she is trying to get elected and thinks she has to pander to the right. It’s the tried and true way of going back to the middle after the primary. We have to show her that we are just as determined and powerful as the right. Then she will have to listen. But that is where the left has always fallen down on the job.
But no matter how many times it is explained, those of us who see the handwriting on the wall are just seen as shills and tuned out. I always thought that was a trait of the right wing conservative, but I now see that it can be universally applied.
ideologues abound
This is the fucking News people, YOU SHOULD NEVER EXPECT YOUR INFORMATION SOURCES TO CATER TO YOUR VIEWS! Seriously, that makes you no better than a FOX News, or an MSNBC viewer.
But they are right, we as Americans vote on issues that affect more than a billion people, throughout the world. We don’t have the privilege of “voting our conscience,” because we are not a Party-Representative voting Democracy for Legislative positions! It’s just the way the Constitution is written, and guess what! It’s only been written once! The US is not only the first country to lead with a Representative system, or this modern age, but is also the only one who hasn’t had their Constitution fall apart, and have to start over 15+ times. Why? Because voters CANNOT always be trusted, when they are not education and informed enough. It’s a simple as that.
So yes! Voting for Jill Stein is a vote for Trump! And if “voting your conscience” allows for us to commit tons of war crimes, because the President does have unbelievable access and leeway in modern day Foreign Policy, then go right at it! But don’t you dare bitch when we are set deeper into perpetual warfare, our economy tanks, as all NATO allies decide to cut Trade Deals with the US, as well as increase Tariffs because we’re acting like a bunch of fucking jack asses, killing women and children everywhere Trump feels like it! Our votes impact the whole word, this isn’t a meaningless French President, or a Spanish Nationalist Prime Minister… Those people are kept in check by the our President, but no one can keep our President in check when his platform is clearly Authoritarian, and the people still elect him because so-called “Progressives” are unwilling to compromise and bite their tongue, in order to actual get us somewhere better, instead of making us regress deep into a hole we will never get out of. I hope you love that student debt, because you’ll be defaulting, you’ll be broke, and who knows, you might end-up getting drafted. So vote stupidly if you want to, my 8 years of service are up, but that blood will be on your hands, and there most definitely will be a ton of innocent blood if he is elected. Including minorities here, since he incites the worst people to commit violence for some dumb shit.
This hour was absolutely infuriating. I have been growing more and more irritated with Michael Shure over the past 15 months. While I love Ben, I find it impossible to enjoy watching him commentate when Michael is there, encouraging such a narrow minded view. I don’t think Jimmy Dore is even close to being 100% correct on everything he talks about, but he sure as shit has a better grasp on the insidiousness of the establishment and Clinton. TYT, please do a better job of having a balanced panel (especially when Shure is on) so that those who may not be as informed politically can at least be made aware there are differing opinions on issues.
I’m completely disgusted with what I just watched.
You are HI-larious because you think that Trumpzilla means more war, when $hillary is the one NeoCons are backing. $he is making defense ontractors giddy because of all the bank they will be making when $he is prez. $hillary is a guarantee we have MORE “interventions” around the world.
Also, to think $he gives a shit about American jobs (other than CEOs) you are completely clueless.
TPP is a disaster for this country, every country & the planet. Game Over on Climate Change (altho I suspect it is already).
Previous reply was meant to be under “Kevin.”
In truth, I completely AGREE with what Neddoest just wrote!
TYT obviously has several members who are not able to use logic. All of the above commenters are just as bad as the “deplorables”. You listen to those you agree with and those that you don’t are somehow shills. REPUBLICANS ARE AND HAVE ALWAYS BEEN BIG FAT LIARS. You can’t believe a word that comes out of their mouths, including the words “and” and “the”. Do not believe everything you hear about Hilary Clinton. She is far from perfect, but has had so many lies told about her in the last 25 years that anyone who hasn’t been around for longer than that doesn’t know otherwise. AND YOU ARE BUYING IT! Democrats lie too, but like traditional politicians have always done. A thinking person should be able to tell the difference.
Hillary Clinton is a Democrat and that should count for something – Democrats just believe in better things in general. Yes, they are corporate, but not like the Republicans. They have the potential to still be reached. THE REPUBLICANS SOLD THEMSELVES TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER LONG AGO.
I’d say to hell with all of you, but I have to live in the country that you would allow to be governed by Donald Trump. PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, learn to listen to those who have this country’s best interests at heart before it’s too late.
OMG, that opening… LMAO!!!
Amazing show! It’s like the Friday Power Panel came early!
Well considering how your voting system works, if you’re in a swing state then yeah it kinda is the same. If you want to be able to be able to vote your conscience and not have it be “wasted” then campaign to change the system to preferential voting. Until then, ignoring the limits of the current process – while obviously principled, I adore Jill n hate Hill too – is pretty dangerous.
There is no way in hell I am voting for Hillary Clinton. She stole the nomination, had Bernie roughed up and threatened his wife. WTF are you guys doing shilling for Hill? Isn’t this a progressive website? If you continue to support that psychotic, Parkinson’s riddled criminal you are going to lose your audience. The DNC fucked up by shoving her down everyone’s throat. We wanted Bernie. We got a coughing hag, now it’s time to give the establishment the middle finger and vote Trump. He’s too lazy to actually cause any harm. He doesn’t even want the job. But I think he’s taken enough crap from the Clinton’s now he may actually go for the win. A vote for Hillary is a vote for the TPP and every other oligarchy wish list item. She’s toxic and she’s the democrats’ problem.
Amen.
You guys are full of shit to say that casting a vote for Jill Stein is the same as casting a vote for Donald Trump. THIS is the Democratic establishment party line – way to go TYT. You all drank the damn kool-aid! Sick of this! Really sick of this!
Yea. Cant believe they are fear mongering so hard lately.
Agreed.
Scavengers found two more bombs than the TSA to date. Someone get those guys a paycheck!
More seriously though I see a different lens; recently you covered how black schools are run like prisons and many leave school already primed to go straight to prison. Arabs, Sikhs and others get lumped in to “terrorists”, they get treated in a very ugly way – even when doing something like taking a photo of a bridge or a skyscraper gets them at least questioned or arrested by security or police. The correlation I follow here that if you treat a group of people like terrorists, committing terrorism becomes a basic part of their method of expressing grievances. Similar in its own way with the ‘lone gunman’ and school shootings usually committed by angry white men.
I’ve made a sweeping generalization here; but I see the violent expressions of different groups of people “seem” to have regularity. I have not studied it, but I believe that knowing how to solve this interpersonal crisis is simple and straightforward but actually getting everyone to understand their unconscious biases and be able to constructively work past them (for all sides) is going to be harder to solve than say, climate change – but worth every iota of effort put into it.
Very disappointing. Don’t ignore your base, please. At least get Jimmy Dore on, if not he & Steve O, if you’re gonna have both Michael & Ben being surrogates for Clinton. Very hard to watch for anyone not “feeling the her”. Still love you all though.
You´re right. Was ben an Mtv V.J. in the 90´s? Deja vu like during Rock the Vote. Mtv played Slick Willie on sax, just like Fox & CNN please Drumpf, free of charge. Mtv went so hard for Clinton, Chris Cornell was like DUBBYA TEE EFF?
Except for Jimmy Dore, they all are surrogates for Hillary Clinton anymore. I get it. I don’t want Trump to be president either. It’s that I’m absolutely not willing to ignore the stolen primary. If we do that, both parties see that they can cheat outright and rig an election and not many people give a crap. Did they just win the power ball or what? If we let this go, we have no right to call ourselves a democratic nation. We should not expect even the pretence of fairness in any election going forward. Anyone who gives their vote to Hillary Clinton puts their stamp of approval on election fraud. If one is okay with that, well, there’s nothing else I can say. It’s disappointing that TYT feels that hammering Trump day after day and either not reporting or very lightly reporting Clinton’s glaring problems is what their members want to see. We already know Trump’s awful. TYT continuing to tell me Trump went bankrupt is not a devastating revelation! Please, just be truthful about the two major candidates. That’s what I’d like to see as a member, and maybe some reporting about the two other presidential candidates as well.
It’s official, the neoliberal twats have taken over TYT. I can get this same garbage over at the gray lady with corporatists Krugman, Rosenthal et al.
You know I could respect your opinion if you weren’t so condescending and dismissive but you are, and that is so fucked up. You are pussies, you are terrified of Trump. Grow a set. Or four sets for this weak pathetic shivering in your boots panel. This weak shit just makes us want to flush Hilary down the toilet of history where she belongs even more.
Study the history of progressives, early 20th century, and you will see the same attitude towards our heroes who helped create the new deal. Dismissive assholes just like this panel but they fought the good fight nonetheless. Think FDR would have done his thing without the lefties fucking with him? Think again.
Jimmy, please, get something going. I want you to have my monthly money. I’m wasting it on this trash.
I always feel good watching Jimmy Dore. Very cathartic.
Ugh. Not watching again. if I want to hear Michael and Ben’ shilling for Clinton I can watch MSNBC and CNN. Wolf Blitzer and Chris Matthews are is super stars compared to them.