Probably my favourite Old School. Cenk was so right and early too. Ben and Wes are too stuck in their worlds. I hope people heed his current warnings about the rise of fascism . Get ready kids…
Almost 2 hour discussion that felt like 1. Went by super fast. Engaging. Loved the virtual/augmented reality topic. The last 40 minutes was very interesting and insightful. Great back and forth and differing of opinion. I love the serious topics, whether political or otherwise. Keep up the political conversation! Looking forward to catching up to the old school episodes in Feb. 2016.
To Wes’ point on the American Cold War mindset: It’s certainly correct that US officials believed they were losing the Cold War up until the 1980s, however one must put heavy emphasis on the word *believed*. American intelligence and State Dept. officials, particularly with regard to Latin America, consistently overestimated Soviet influences in leftist movements throughout the Cold War (their mistaken belief in monolithic Communism), a fear which really has it’s roots dating back to the port World War I ‘Red Scare’.
Surviving members of the Allende regime in Chile have said over and over that they wished they had had real support from the USSR, but that support never materialized. In that same vein, other leftist movements in Latin America (the vast majority of which had genuine popular backing) also only had token Soviet support and happened because of genuine popular movements by the economically and politically oppressed peoples of the various countries in which they occurred. This more realistic picture is far from being the Soviet steamroller of Gulags and mass executions that American strategists envisioned these social movements to be a part of. In reality, the Soviet Union’s actual reach in fomenting and controlling revolutions and subversion was extremely limited. The true grasp of the USSR in terms of its support for friendly regimes was likewise mainly limited to Europe with Cuba and a small smattering of African, Asian, and Middle Eastern countries being outliers not truly acting as puppets to a Kremlin puppet master as many American strategists believed.
The biggest failure of the Cold War for the US was not the failure to contain Communism till the 80s, but was rather their failure to parse the complex set of affairs after WWII as nations in the global south sought to shake the yoke of imperial colonialism. Given the egalitarian and anti-imperial tenets of Socialist and Communist ideology (as well as other leftist ideologies like Anarchism) it is unsurprising that many colonized peoples took up these banners as their rallying cry. The crucial point that the US and her allies failed to recognize was that these movements, while they were sympathetic to Communism and willing to accept Soviet and Chinese arms to help achieve their goal of liberation, they weren’t going to be puppets of either the Soviets or the Chinese for their own understandable nationalist reasons and also due to the fairly limited reach of said powers.
Was there real, actual, terrible oppression happening in the Communist Block and in other so-called Communist regimes? -Yes; that is overwhelmingly true. However, when it comes to America’s own stomping grounds in Latin America the US supported grotesque Fascist authoritarian regimes that were indeed no better if not in some cases worse than those in the Soviet block. So the Cold War argument that any form of authoritarian oppression is tolerable as long as “X” or “Y”-nation is not flying a red banner is actually just another chapter in the larger arc of US interventionist foreign policy in Latin America that dates back to the Spanish-American War for reasons of regional hegemony and economic penetration and strategic interests. [By the way, just for clarification, I’m not saying that Wes’ position is one of support for dictators; obviously he was just illustrating it as an example of the strategic thought that prevailed the Cold War era.] The ideological framing of Capitalism vs Communism in US strategic thought during that time was self-confirming in a way which served to justify scrapping the Good Neighbor Policy in favor of pursuing a course of interventionism which benefited US corporations and financial institutions similar to what the US Navy and Marines did for the United Fruit Company decades earlier. Economic and state interests aligned and reinforced one another.
The Cold War between the US and the USSR was not so much a battle of ideologies more than it was a battle of competing statist systems that sought only really to increase their own respective power and influence as states are inclined to do. This came at the expense of the freedom, sovereignty, and self-determination of those (whether they be nations, individuals, or domestic groups) that sought to deviate from either State’s web of influence in a way that seemed vaguely like the other’s ideology. In the midst of the Realpolitik jockeying, adherence by the US or the Soviets to the actual tenets of Democratic or Communist/Socialist principles and values, respectively, fell by the wayside and the security and supremacy of the State took central and often sole focus.
To whomever directed this, I’m fairly pissed at you buddy. I mean how do you go from the 3-shot to the Cenk shot just when Cenk says that Face Stroker goes “Hi” to him. How do you not get their reactions, dude? *siiiiiigh* Aaaaaaanyway.
You sure do, Cenk! Ben is so right on, join in the excitement, VR is noowww <3
Is it wrong that I may have fallen even more in love with Wes after this episode? Oh Wes… you can't say things like that when I'm watching… rawwrrr! I think this is the dirtiest OS I've ever seen. You bois are very naughty! Wes… hit me up, next time you're in Australia LOL I'd love to stroke your face 8^)
Cenk, oh Captain, my Captain… noooooo 2x or 0, you're off your game tonight, play it safe… Oh, there goes $20 lol But I enjoyed your thinking of an updated 'Marshall Plan'. It's well documented that education and science growth slow dramatically during zealous religious governance., and the best way to combat dictatorships, and their ilk, is with jobs and education. I think Britain recently finished paying off that bill, to the US :P Anyhoo, there'll be little co-operative spending in the Middle East unless it's going to make someone rich, so there is that :\
I just have to say, Wes, you TNG fan you! <3, 1:26:45… truly….. I have been saying that for years, LOL Nearly choked on my pear cider ;)
Wes is often a fun guy to listen to, but as soon as he puts on his Realpolitik hat, he turns into an utter jackass. His defense of the CIA’s backing of mujahideen is laughable! He first goes in with “It’s not on us, those guys should’ve just said no to our offer of helping them take over!” Then he goes in with “Hey, you know, we had a good reason – the Soviets were taking over one democratic country after another, putting millions of people into camps and exterminating them. We couldn’t take those losses!”
(What the holy fuck is he on about? Did I miss a history lesson in which the communist USSR was making a push across the world, exterminating millions along the way?)
Wes sounds like he’s used to friends bowing down to his superior geostrategic military expertise, most of it derived from having the same name as General Dad. Far too often, he’s full of shit. Hey Wes, whatever happened to that WW3 scenario you drew up for us a few months back? You know, the one with Russia refusing to stop at Crimea and moving hard into Europe, and the US being forced to do something about it?
God damn, I should’ve watched the whole thing before commenting. Wes also states that after WW2, Germany was “the top technological economic powerhouse” (while back on planet Earth, it was utterly ruined in the latter stages of the war) with “disciplined fucking people”, and on the other hand, you’d have to rebuild “some fucking middle-eastern province that’s never gonna get their shit together”. See, we shouldn’t help the fucking mooslims because they’re the wrong kind of people so it would be a waste of time. Fuck of, “dude”!
(Also, he says the Emperor of Japan was still in charge and more than a figurehead, a supremely dumb, uninformed, and irrelevant statement, yet he states it with an aura of calm, confident authority, so it must be true.)
And Cenk barely challenges him. He has always shown far to much deference to this guy. He would demolish this bullshit coming from almost anyone else except the son of Wes Clarke Sr.
More of a cunt, though – I certainly wasn’t trolling to get a rise out of you. Like I said over there, I do appreciate you responding and defending your views, wrong as they may be. And I took it way too far with the petty little personal jabs, which I kind of feel bad about.
BTW, the comments on this thread preceded the exchange on the other one – they weren’t meant to drag out that conversation further.
98 million people died under communism in the 20th Century. America steadily lost (with the exception of a ceasefire in Korea) every Cold War conflict with the Communists up until Afghanistan. To say I’m talking out of my ass when I’m trying to give some perspective into what strategic planners mindset was in the 70’s and 80’s isn’t talking out of my ass.
You seem to think I’m some neophyte who’s on the show because of my father, so let me lat out a bit of my background before I address your first claim. I attended and graduated Georgetown’s School of Foreign Service (where our career diplomats and a large number of our CIA go to school, my academic advisor was Madelline Albright, who I also worked as an assistant for at the post Cold War CSCE conference in Europe, I then spent four years as an active duty Army officer doing forward reconnaissance for the 4th Infantry Division, I’ve consulted for the CIA, done information videos for strategic satellite systems from Boeing, worked for an electronic warfare company that provides services to several of our intel agencies and have a large number of friends I speak to on a regular basis that are FAO’s or working in intel throughout the world at present. Now, to get back to my father. I had 18 years of nonstop exposure to the military in my house as that was what all of our lives were geared toward at the time. I’ve also had a war fought out of the second story of my house. So seriously irc117, what is your background that you’re such a fucking expert? Did you read something on the internet once?
Oh, so I guess we are getting into this after all? OK.
First off, you weren’t just “giving some perspective into the mindset of strategic planners in the 70s and 80s”, you were providing feeble justifications for a disastrous policy that came back to bite the US in the ass. Do you really expect us to believe that the real reason for arming the mujahideen was the Red Terror in Hungary, or the fucking Khmer Rouge? Come on! Painting a pretty picture of humanism and righteousness over the harsh reality (a cold, calculated, struggle for global dominance) is ridiculous – you didn’t need to do that, Cenk didn’t pose the question, he just basically said “we done fucked up” re. Afghanistan, which was somehow enough for you to trot out those hollow excuses for a policy that has led to highly undesirable results in the long run.
That’s what led me to (speculatively) conclude that your military background has left that instinct deeply ingrained – the need to, when someone points out a strategic misstep – launch into a defensive muddying of the waters along the lines of “No, look, we had good reason, it was either that or we all end up in communist death camps, man!”
But it was what followed that bothered me the most – you stated that the Germans could have been built back up only because they were “disciplined fucking people” with whom the US shares an ethnic background. Unlike those fucking Middle-Easterners who will never get their shit together anyway, just look at them, the reasonable and intelligent ones migrated out of their shitholes long ago, and all that’s left are the idiots who drink the fanatics’ kool-aid. Wasn’t that your argument, more or less? It’s pure jingoism, or as those disciplined fucking Germans would say #kulturchauvinismus.
Your background, impressive as it is, does not make your half-baked arguments any stronger, even though Cenk certainly seems to think so. To me, those “18 years of nonstop exposure to the military in my house” spell out “bias” if anything. I could be wrong, maybe you made an effort to challenge the militaristic CW mindset that appears to have been prevalent in your surroundings and then came back to it later of your own volition. If so, I apologize for the assumption. Still doesn’t make you right, though.
Of course, I never claimed to be an expert. Anyone with a passing interest in European history can easily recognize the sheer insanity of the claim that the Spanish Inquisition was inspired by the Caliphate of Cordoba. Likewise, anyone with a passing interest in the history of the Middle East can recognize the staggering jingoism of the claim that “those people” are uncivilized because they never have been and never will be.
Why Cenk doesn’t bother to challenge some of the nonsense that you occasionally trot out is hard to understand – he challenges similar viewpoints when expressed by anyone else. But he idolizes you, man. He sees you as some sort of RW Sterling Archer and appears to be genuinely envious of the life you’ve led (in the friendliest way possible, of course: admiration is probably a better word for it than envy). That’s why you get a pass on TYT – your breadth of life experience, your work with the CIA, your dad, your confident manner of speech. If on the next episode of Old School you argued something utterly insane, for example, the US needs to nuke Antarctica because that’s where Putin is secretly building bases for the invading aliens, Cenk would just chuckle and go: “Well, I guess… agree to disagree? Whatta guy!”
Yes, let’s get into it. Frankly, I wish Cenk did challenge me more as I prefer reaching knowledge via the dialectic.
You’re right, Germany was leveled during the war – but it still had human capital and ingrained habits which evolved over centuries. You do realize we’ve spent more money trying to rebuild Afghanistan in real dollars than we did all of Europe during the Marshall Plan? Why didn’t it work?
I’m not defensively muddying the waters with communist death camp talk. It was a real issue. Most of this “arm the jihadis policy came about in the 70s. The Khmer Rouge was not some event way back in history, nor was the cultural revolution, nor was the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the collapse of Iran, Nicaragua etc… We were losing the Cold War up until the mid-80’s. I’m not sure your age but having grown up in that time, each year there was a new crisis and collapse of “the West”. It’s absolutely relevant to discuss not just the facts on the ground at the time but the mind set of people who made the policy decision which led to the disaster we see today in the Middle East.
My thoughts on the similarities between Spain’s colonization in the new world and the militarized spread of Islam are not thought “insane” by anyone with a passing knowledge of European history. There’s a really convincing argument for it by Nobel Laureate V.S. Naipaul in his book Among The Believers.
Now, on to the belief that I’m somehow racist against these “uncivilized” peoples. I believe anyone, from anywhere of any race can prosper under an effective system. I have a lot of Serbian, Greek, Iranian, Pakistani and Afghan friends who are very successful here in the states and yet their home countries cannot seem to get their shit together. The traditional power/cultural systems in these countries developed in response to the needs of the times but to a large extent don’t function anymore because times have changed. It’s not a judgement on the superiority of one “race” over another, it’s the acknowledgement that some societal systems/cultural habits function better than others in the modern world.
Growing up in the military effects you. Everyone’s dad I grew up with fought and lost in Vietnam. Most of that generation was bitter as hell. The advantage of growing up in that world is perspective, as you’re in a different place every two years. So I’d say I wasn’t blinded by it..
Rebuilding Europe in the aftermath of a global conflict isn’t really comparable to rebuilding Afghanistan in the middle of an ongoing local conflict. How well could Germany have been rebuilt if the Nazi remnants had just withdrawn east into Poland and kept things going for a decade or two? The amount of money spent isn’t the only factor. Europe was rebuilt into Europe after six years of warfare, while Afghanistan – after centuries of intermittent warfare – can only be rebuilt into Afghanistan, which is to say, into a state of perpetual civil unrest.
In that sense, I’m more with you than I am with Cenk whose idea of “just give ’em schools and internet access” is hopelessly idealistic (though I think he’s aware of that). The thing is, if you oppose him by saying “It’s just the way they are, the Germans were like us and those brownish guys aren’t, they’ll remain fucked up forever because their ways aren’t the modern ways,” you’re making it black and white. That view buttresses the sense of jingoistic superiority in potential Trump voters, who nod their heads confidently when they hear idiocy along the lines of “We just go in, take their oil, and get out!”
As an (also simplistic) alternative, I offer the “give them time” approach. Instead of attributing the state of failing countries to their traditional cultural systems, just recognize that they’re developing under unique circumstances, hindered by a variety of factors internal and external, so any chance of stabilization and real progress has to be far, far away. Expecting them to blossom after a few key changes are made is unrealistic, and switching gears every few years in an attempt to propel them forward faster can only be counterproductive. (Just like adopting a chauvinistic “That’s the way those guys are” attitude is counterproductive.) If you let them bumble their way into the future, there’s a half-chance they turn out OK. If you try to intervene militarily or politically every few years, you tend to get a series of setbacks and civil wars.
Which kind of sort of brings us (via Ukraine) to the outdated West-vs.-East perspective issue. You’re right, there’s value in discussing the mindset of the people who made certain historic decisions, but I don’t think it’s justified to assume that the decision-makers of the day were under the same influence of the media as the general populace was. It’s perfectly for a kid growing up in the Cold War state of mind to have had the sense that the Russians were coming, that the West was about to collapse, etc. But guys who actually wielded that propaganda? Should we assume that they totally meant it, that the phantom of communism was just as real to them? Or perhaps they used it as an excuse whenever they found it necessary. To me, saying “because communism!” back in the day sounds much the same as saying “because terrorism!” today: it’s fear-mongering, an excuse to do whatever the hell you want to do, a way to sell whatever you need to sell to the people – be it the Vietnam War or the Patriot Act.
Of course, I’m not dismissing the real historic threat of the USSR just as I wouldn’t dismiss the real threat of terrorism today. It’s just that, whenever I hear someone using it as the go-to excuse for just about anything, I’m inclined to disbelieve them and start thinking about alternative motives. Those phantoms, the way they’re presented to us, are too damn convenient.
Re. perspective & being blinded, I hope you’re right.
wesclarkjr
The Afghans have had near permanent civil unrest because their cultural loyalties are family and tribe as opposed to being able to build a modern state. We could poor another trillion dollars of development money into it and nothing would change.
The level of propaganda in the past was nowhere near as sophisticated or powerful as propaganda wielded today and if anything it was inverted to give the American people a more rosy view of the world than it actually was. The people at the top (I’m talking Presidents, SecDef, 4 stars etc. were expressing their genuine geostrategic fears. Was this put to private profit by the unscrupulous to take advantage of the situation? Of course. Was there an actual existential threat. Yes.
My personal view is that, short of stopping genocide, we shouldn’t be involved in the affairs of other nations ,certainly not politically but the world is moving in the opposite direction.
(We seem to have reached the bottom of the thread, since there’s no Reply link at the end of your last post, I’m replying to this one instead.)
It’s a chicken & egg situation with Afghanistan – are they perpetually at war because they’re a primitive tribal culture, or are they a primitive tribal culture because they’ve been perpetually at war? In either case, you need to pour money in there just to get them back to the state they were in when you started pouring in bombs the last time around. It won’t be a great state, it probably won’t fix much of anything, but a case could be made for some sort of moral obligation on USA’s part. Hypothetically, if each of the previous would-be conquerers wasted some money trying to shore things up after wrecking them, maybe it would be less of a hellhole today?
wesclarkjr
Agreed it’s a chicken and egg thing. It’s also a geography thing.
I don’t know if your plan could work without forcibly disarming the warlords. There’s also the problem with the elite having left the country over the last 40 years How can you rebuild a country when the educated have abandoned it?
“There’s also the problem with the elite having left the country over the last 40 years How can you rebuild a country when the educated have abandoned it?”
You have them educate some more? It takes ages, I know, but there probably isn’t a quick & easy fix available in most cases.
I mean, if it takes them a century – OK, that’s how long it takes. In the meantime you try to keep their shit contained so that it doesn’t spill out to complicate things regionally, and call it a day… A century, whatever.
It’s not perfect, but it’s cheaper and has a better chance of actually working than this endless run of interventions and shows of force and failing puppet governors.
questionable
Interesting! I have to disagree with Wes in the sense that… what, we can have like 5 puppet dictatorships in the Middle East that publicly behead people and stone women… but how dare the Soviets try to take a puppet state of their own! Those monsters…
Its the assumptions implicit in that perspective that are problematic. The people we supported brought tyranny and death, so arguing that it would have been worse without us displays the underlying arrogance of American policy.
Cenk i agree with building school and stuff and i believe let them governed themself is the right thing to do , but cenk plz dont do the paternalist thing that occidental government always want to do , the people of those countries their are not children , plz stop with the imperialist and colonial bullshit .
the West doesn’t have the answers ! remember the arabe world was booming with intellectual/science people before the get in contact with the west and everthing turn to shit , crusade in the middle age in the middle east , slavery , colony in africa asia plus slavery and genocide in america
Commenting on what Cenk and Wes were alluding to in 12:30
I was sitting at a workshop by one of the largest sustainability companies in the world and they already have plans on building a library of specific diets and meals singled out to one specific code, e.g “G75” which is tailored to your DNA make up. The video was shown as two men were ordering their meal based on these codes. This can be easily applied to supermarkets and everything else selling food products. In tandem with with nano machines that track your health this would mean that you could only have certain ‘unhealthy food’ allowances per certain amount of time. Scary world. Luckily we’re far off from but what was discussed is really nothing far from reality.
I also indeed like a lot of the statements/overall POV of Wes:
– Why should I care, what religion someone on the other side of the planet has?
– We should leave the ME immediately
– Every time you get yourself involved, you squeeze a hornets nest [regardless of your intentions]
– “Mild Interventionism” is just a remnant of neocolonialist policy
and maybe the most important point he made in this video:
– The people who are doing this, will do this no matter what, they will find a way to pervert secular ideas too…
I dare to interpret Sam Harris’ views on all those issues, but my personal hunch is, they disagree more on fundamental issues than Cenk and Sam actually, Cenk is more in between the too, but hey watch the Kyle’s interview with Sam and judge for yourself – I’d recommend paying attention to his position on the Chomsky rule in particular, but judge for yourself… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYUPr6cH294
I agree with dderss – the anti-russian bias is more and more obvious. I mean Wes said himself that Erdogan is or at least was an ISIS supporter, it’s also clear that Turkey is more interested in getting rid of Assad, than he is on fighting Islamists. He used his entrance into the war as excuse to bomb Kurds – the most effective force against ISIS. But you actually believe that Turkey shot down the plane to make a principled point about airspace violations? That’s absolutely ridiculous. Do you know that the “Turkmen” in Syria are not politically affiliated? Is that even realistic given all the different groups right now – and WHY were they shooting down the pilots? You said, it’s not OK, but why did they do it? I honestly believe that this area was controlled by al-Quaida, al-Nusra (Cenk in a show lately acknowledged that those indeed are at least part of the so-called “moderate rebels”, so what’s the problem with Russia bombing them? Really, we get angry with Russia, because they’re bombing al-Quaeda? It’s not like we wouldn’t know, what al-Quaeda would do, if they were in charge. Seriously, can the US government please clarify what’s the priority in this war: fighting ISIS, fighting Assad, securing access to oil, securing safe trade routes or what? And can TYT/the hosts please clarify what the priority should be, what their policy POV is on that issue?) and Erdogan got pissed, that this indirectly helps Assad, maybe even the Kurds (the most effective force against ISIS, actually), who still want to close their damned territory along the Turkish border – what they almost achieved, before Erdogan joined the war himself… Again, even the anti-Russian foreign minister of Germany said “There is only one unreliable player in the Middle-East and that’s Turkey, not Russia!” Why does TYT always ignore the European statements on those issues (Egypt, Ukraine, Syria, Iraq) – and I thought the US and the EU were supposed to be allies… Do you really think the Europeans are all biased, let alone pro-Russia, after all the cold-war experiences? Ridiculous! No it’s like always on all issues – Germans are blind to German propaganda, French are blind to French propaganda, Russians are blind to Russian propaganda and, I fear, Americans are blind to American propaganda – regarding domestic policies – not so much, but on foreign policy issues..? 90% of Germans think austerity is the right economic policy, 90% of Greeks think it’s wrong – 5 years before the crisis ~50% in both countries shared similar views on economic issues like that – coincidence or propaganda..?
could be explained just by run of the mill nationalism. people support their own countries interests, that shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone which is why you see such differing opinions on how to address international policy from country to country.
but the shift in the numbers is interesting – remind you that the answer of the question was “Is austerity is the right economic policy?”. So it’s not only nationalism, but blind, uninformed, nationalism and it seem to be less “countries interests” but whatever the government’s doing…
Well yes I agree, I would simply argue that most people view their government as representing their countries interests on the international stage (even if in reality they don’t) just like a family automatically supports the head of the house.
I felt like making a tiny addendum to my last point
“Well yes I agree, I would simply argue that most people view their government as representing their country’s interests on the international stage (even if in reality they don’t) just like a family automatically supports the head of the house
lol sorry to do this again but my addendum did not get put in,
“Well yes I agree, I would simply argue that most people view their government as representing their country’s interests on the international stage (even if in reality they don’t) just like a family automatically supports the head of the house when dealing with other houses.”
Benjamin and Wesley are wrong about the plane, Eveт USA says that the Su-24 was downed in Syrian air space. Also, there is no confirmation that Su-24 actually violated Turkey’s air space, as their claims are nonsensical (like they warned the plane for 10 times during 5 minutes while the plane was supposedly in Turkish airspace only for few seconds, and plane speed they claim was also absurd: ~400 km/h).
Also, Turkmen that Russians are bombing in northern Syria belong to Free Syrian Army aka “We welcome ISIS brothers” (public statement of their commander) and Al-Nusra (Al-Qaeda). Of course, Western media never report that, so all guests here are deluded into thinking they are just “rebels” (“moderate”). Finally, it has to be noted that there are almost no civilian Turkmen for a long time already (they are among 11 million refugees withing/from Syria).
Also, it is sad that Cenk never mentions in his coverage what Wesley was talking about in the beginning — that Turkey finances and arms Daesh (ISIS), as well as Al-Qaeda (Al-Nusra), actually. So general TYT audience never knows who is USA’s actual ally and foe is in the Middle East.
In this way TYT is much worse than, say Democracy Now. They have no specific anti-Russian/slight neocon/interventionist agenda like Cenk does, so they report ALL facts, not a selection that manipulates viewers in certain way as per agenda.
“Also, it is sad that Cenk never mentions in his coverage what Wesley was talking about in the beginning — that Turkey finances and arms Daesh (ISIS), as well as Al-Qaeda (Al-Nusra), actually. So general TYT audience never knows who is USA’s actual ally and foe is in the Middle East.”
Agreed but I would chalk this up to Cenk wasting time feuding with people making those type of points instead of making them himself.
This is again Cold War era anti-Russian insanity speaks in Cenk,
There is nothing what resembles Putin in how Trump behaves or his policies. Erdogan does seem similar partly to Trump, because of way he hold himself and what he says and how he acts.
Putin is highly intelligent calculating internationalist politician. Despite all the “super man” jokes about him, he is never buffoon like clown, or “mad dog” like Erdogan (the nickname he has). Putin is internationalist and he supports all major religions as well as secularism and non-sectarianism, unlike Trump or Erdogan which either hate other religions or want to install specific religions.
Putin is authoritarian (let alone the fact that he is cynical corrupt politician, like almost all of politicians are), but he never acted in dictatorial/totalitarian way, unlike how Trump and Erdogan behave.
Only been a member for 6 months but I anoint this the best Old School of all time. TYT, please add Wes to the Old School hosts. Cenk, Ben and Wes make a great on air team. Of coarse I’m biased as I’m in the same age bracket as those Old Fuck’s, lol.
Investing a seed to progress the Middle East towards a culture of secularism and more civil society is going to be helped out by education being paid by the country that broke the previous equilibrium (US) and Cenk is right about that, but Wes is right about that it can’t be fixed by that sort of aid as well.
If Arnold Schwarzenegger were to learn Arabic and Persian, he would be able to be push that the region needs to get to where they were before the rise of Wahhabism. His “self-help-book” personal accountable outlook on life coupled with being an internationally recognizable action hero and machismo persona would be a force for good in the region. The fact that he is an immigrant and successful both in acting and real estate in America is a great case study for tolerance, secularism, and mixed economy that exists in America is in additional to his ability to access a population that idolizes him from the man-ly roles he has portrayed. He’s not ideal politically from a American point of view, but he’s ideal messenger to counter the religious militants that the Cold War raised up.
lol because he is, Wes Clark totally shut him down and his backward thinking. Wes would totally be on Sam’s side if Wes actually knew his positions, which made it nice to see that neither Ben nor Wes joined Cenk on his rant.
It was also amazing to see Cenk literally has no idea what his critics think as he is not even aware of the definition of the regressive left. And then he goes on to say “we are way more liberal than them”, perfect insight into his mind.
The Cenk Guide- “Ignore critics, puff chest and shout ‘I am the best liberal’, silence and attack those who disagree, mischaracterize opponents into straw men so they can be whacked away in an angry shouting tirade not actually faithfully engage with any arguments.”
Watch the Ann Coulter Politicon debate, I am in no way a fan of Ann Coulter but I was at least curious how she would argue her points but Cenk continuously showed his colors by resorting to the crowd. He really had nothing substantive to say, he would just take Ann’s words and repackage them to make her sound like a monster and she called him out on it and I was siding with her even though I disagree with nearly everything she stands for.
I’m so glad you brought up the Politicon debate because I hate Ann Coulter and her ilk but I’m always open to new ideas through debate and dialogue. Unfortunately, Cenk resorted to making jokes about Ann, twisting her words and playing to the crowd like you said. It was sad to see a rather liberal crowd become an angry lynch mob. Playing to someones emotions is the dirtiest trick in the book and seeing Cenk doing it so blatantly was incredibly disappointing.
About Wes, I’m guessing he was hesitant to completely disagree with Cenk about Sam but I think you’re right about him being more open to facts. I’m also getting a little tired, like you, about Cenk constantly bringing up Sam! It’s the 3rd episode in a row he’s done it now and I feel he’s still a little annoyed that he got grief from people he felt were 100% on his side. Like some people on the comment section believe, I don’t dislike Cenk. I love TYT but I just happen to have a tiny difference of opinion on this single subject. That’s all.
Complete ditto! And I’m one who watches the best of Ann Coulter clips and laughs at her insane comments but Cenk should have responded with more than just trying to publicly shame her, he didn’t even try to moderate the crowd, he riled them up constantly and never asked her a real question other than asking her to justify quotes from her books.
You’re right about the 1:20:15 reference, Wahhabism is the root of the jihadist problem, of course not the people but the jihadist ideology that’s at the root of it, including the people who were brainwashed and propagandized to adhere to the ideology.
What exactly do you think Islam is outside of Jihadism? Do you think this is some liberal ideology spreading liberalism throughout the world? No. It’s a conservative traditionalist ideology (that stole most of it’s stories from christian and jewish books I might add) that claims to be the last revelation and the last true word of god.
It says live this way explicitly and don’t listen to those outside the religion. Mohammed was not an admirable fellow, he was a warlord who killed all the other aspiring religious prophets and took child sex slaves but people worship his memory because of how successful he was conquering and subjugating his enemies.
Muslims living in the western secular world hold western secular values and I’m not talking about them but muslims from the muslim majority countries often have to live under religious law and hold very different attitudes towards religion, for them it is not a weekend recreational convenience, it is a way of life that they have been brainwashed into for more than a hundred generations. It doesn’t mean they are all bad people, I think they would probably be good people if they didn’t feel so pressured into following religious myths that made illiberal/authoritarian demands.
I agree with Wes, he is very insightful and realistic. Cenk is a little too idealistic and jingoistic. Cenk is good a puffing himself up like he’s an expert but I love how Wes never backs down from the puffing. John gives in to the Puff, Jimmy gives in to the Puff, Ben moderately fights the Puff but Wes annihilates the Puff.
Comments
Probably my favourite Old School. Cenk was so right and early too. Ben and Wes are too stuck in their worlds. I hope people heed his current warnings about the rise of fascism . Get ready kids…
Amazing to see how long Cenk has been right for. Almost a year before the election he knew Trump has a good shot at winning the election.
The slow creep of donnie tinyhands through a year of old school is fascinating and scary
the amount of correct predictions cenk and to some extent ben gave with regards to trump is pretty impressive tbh
Almost 2 hour discussion that felt like 1. Went by super fast. Engaging. Loved the virtual/augmented reality topic. The last 40 minutes was very interesting and insightful. Great back and forth and differing of opinion. I love the serious topics, whether political or otherwise. Keep up the political conversation! Looking forward to catching up to the old school episodes in Feb. 2016.
Great show guys as always!
To Wes’ point on the American Cold War mindset: It’s certainly correct that US officials believed they were losing the Cold War up until the 1980s, however one must put heavy emphasis on the word *believed*. American intelligence and State Dept. officials, particularly with regard to Latin America, consistently overestimated Soviet influences in leftist movements throughout the Cold War (their mistaken belief in monolithic Communism), a fear which really has it’s roots dating back to the port World War I ‘Red Scare’.
Surviving members of the Allende regime in Chile have said over and over that they wished they had had real support from the USSR, but that support never materialized. In that same vein, other leftist movements in Latin America (the vast majority of which had genuine popular backing) also only had token Soviet support and happened because of genuine popular movements by the economically and politically oppressed peoples of the various countries in which they occurred. This more realistic picture is far from being the Soviet steamroller of Gulags and mass executions that American strategists envisioned these social movements to be a part of. In reality, the Soviet Union’s actual reach in fomenting and controlling revolutions and subversion was extremely limited. The true grasp of the USSR in terms of its support for friendly regimes was likewise mainly limited to Europe with Cuba and a small smattering of African, Asian, and Middle Eastern countries being outliers not truly acting as puppets to a Kremlin puppet master as many American strategists believed.
The biggest failure of the Cold War for the US was not the failure to contain Communism till the 80s, but was rather their failure to parse the complex set of affairs after WWII as nations in the global south sought to shake the yoke of imperial colonialism. Given the egalitarian and anti-imperial tenets of Socialist and Communist ideology (as well as other leftist ideologies like Anarchism) it is unsurprising that many colonized peoples took up these banners as their rallying cry. The crucial point that the US and her allies failed to recognize was that these movements, while they were sympathetic to Communism and willing to accept Soviet and Chinese arms to help achieve their goal of liberation, they weren’t going to be puppets of either the Soviets or the Chinese for their own understandable nationalist reasons and also due to the fairly limited reach of said powers.
Was there real, actual, terrible oppression happening in the Communist Block and in other so-called Communist regimes? -Yes; that is overwhelmingly true. However, when it comes to America’s own stomping grounds in Latin America the US supported grotesque Fascist authoritarian regimes that were indeed no better if not in some cases worse than those in the Soviet block. So the Cold War argument that any form of authoritarian oppression is tolerable as long as “X” or “Y”-nation is not flying a red banner is actually just another chapter in the larger arc of US interventionist foreign policy in Latin America that dates back to the Spanish-American War for reasons of regional hegemony and economic penetration and strategic interests. [By the way, just for clarification, I’m not saying that Wes’ position is one of support for dictators; obviously he was just illustrating it as an example of the strategic thought that prevailed the Cold War era.] The ideological framing of Capitalism vs Communism in US strategic thought during that time was self-confirming in a way which served to justify scrapping the Good Neighbor Policy in favor of pursuing a course of interventionism which benefited US corporations and financial institutions similar to what the US Navy and Marines did for the United Fruit Company decades earlier. Economic and state interests aligned and reinforced one another.
The Cold War between the US and the USSR was not so much a battle of ideologies more than it was a battle of competing statist systems that sought only really to increase their own respective power and influence as states are inclined to do. This came at the expense of the freedom, sovereignty, and self-determination of those (whether they be nations, individuals, or domestic groups) that sought to deviate from either State’s web of influence in a way that seemed vaguely like the other’s ideology. In the midst of the Realpolitik jockeying, adherence by the US or the Soviets to the actual tenets of Democratic or Communist/Socialist principles and values, respectively, fell by the wayside and the security and supremacy of the State took central and often sole focus.
Best Old School ever. Such an interesting conversation by three of the smartest, most entertaining guys on the planet.
To whomever directed this, I’m fairly pissed at you buddy. I mean how do you go from the 3-shot to the Cenk shot just when Cenk says that Face Stroker goes “Hi” to him. How do you not get their reactions, dude? *siiiiiigh* Aaaaaaanyway.
You sure do, Cenk! Ben is so right on, join in the excitement, VR is noowww <3
Is it wrong that I may have fallen even more in love with Wes after this episode? Oh Wes… you can't say things like that when I'm watching… rawwrrr! I think this is the dirtiest OS I've ever seen. You bois are very naughty! Wes… hit me up, next time you're in Australia LOL I'd love to stroke your face 8^)
Cenk, oh Captain, my Captain… noooooo 2x or 0, you're off your game tonight, play it safe… Oh, there goes $20 lol But I enjoyed your thinking of an updated 'Marshall Plan'. It's well documented that education and science growth slow dramatically during zealous religious governance., and the best way to combat dictatorships, and their ilk, is with jobs and education. I think Britain recently finished paying off that bill, to the US :P Anyhoo, there'll be little co-operative spending in the Middle East unless it's going to make someone rich, so there is that :\
I just have to say, Wes, you TNG fan you! <3, 1:26:45… truly….. I have been saying that for years, LOL Nearly choked on my pear cider ;)
“Clearly I need a better understanding of this.”
Clearly this should be Cenk’s catchphrase. He should have it on every T-shirt.
Wes is often a fun guy to listen to, but as soon as he puts on his Realpolitik hat, he turns into an utter jackass. His defense of the CIA’s backing of mujahideen is laughable! He first goes in with “It’s not on us, those guys should’ve just said no to our offer of helping them take over!” Then he goes in with “Hey, you know, we had a good reason – the Soviets were taking over one democratic country after another, putting millions of people into camps and exterminating them. We couldn’t take those losses!”
(What the holy fuck is he on about? Did I miss a history lesson in which the communist USSR was making a push across the world, exterminating millions along the way?)
Wes sounds like he’s used to friends bowing down to his superior geostrategic military expertise, most of it derived from having the same name as General Dad. Far too often, he’s full of shit. Hey Wes, whatever happened to that WW3 scenario you drew up for us a few months back? You know, the one with Russia refusing to stop at Crimea and moving hard into Europe, and the US being forced to do something about it?
God damn, I should’ve watched the whole thing before commenting. Wes also states that after WW2, Germany was “the top technological economic powerhouse” (while back on planet Earth, it was utterly ruined in the latter stages of the war) with “disciplined fucking people”, and on the other hand, you’d have to rebuild “some fucking middle-eastern province that’s never gonna get their shit together”. See, we shouldn’t help the fucking mooslims because they’re the wrong kind of people so it would be a waste of time. Fuck of, “dude”!
(Also, he says the Emperor of Japan was still in charge and more than a figurehead, a supremely dumb, uninformed, and irrelevant statement, yet he states it with an aura of calm, confident authority, so it must be true.)
And Cenk barely challenges him. He has always shown far to much deference to this guy. He would demolish this bullshit coming from almost anyone else except the son of Wes Clarke Sr.
I’ve responded to your allegations in other thread but I’m kind of done. You’re a bit of a troll and a cunt.
More of a cunt, though – I certainly wasn’t trolling to get a rise out of you. Like I said over there, I do appreciate you responding and defending your views, wrong as they may be. And I took it way too far with the petty little personal jabs, which I kind of feel bad about.
BTW, the comments on this thread preceded the exchange on the other one – they weren’t meant to drag out that conversation further.
98 million people died under communism in the 20th Century. America steadily lost (with the exception of a ceasefire in Korea) every Cold War conflict with the Communists up until Afghanistan. To say I’m talking out of my ass when I’m trying to give some perspective into what strategic planners mindset was in the 70’s and 80’s isn’t talking out of my ass.
You seem to think I’m some neophyte who’s on the show because of my father, so let me lat out a bit of my background before I address your first claim. I attended and graduated Georgetown’s School of Foreign Service (where our career diplomats and a large number of our CIA go to school, my academic advisor was Madelline Albright, who I also worked as an assistant for at the post Cold War CSCE conference in Europe, I then spent four years as an active duty Army officer doing forward reconnaissance for the 4th Infantry Division, I’ve consulted for the CIA, done information videos for strategic satellite systems from Boeing, worked for an electronic warfare company that provides services to several of our intel agencies and have a large number of friends I speak to on a regular basis that are FAO’s or working in intel throughout the world at present. Now, to get back to my father. I had 18 years of nonstop exposure to the military in my house as that was what all of our lives were geared toward at the time. I’ve also had a war fought out of the second story of my house. So seriously irc117, what is your background that you’re such a fucking expert? Did you read something on the internet once?
Oh, so I guess we are getting into this after all? OK.
First off, you weren’t just “giving some perspective into the mindset of strategic planners in the 70s and 80s”, you were providing feeble justifications for a disastrous policy that came back to bite the US in the ass. Do you really expect us to believe that the real reason for arming the mujahideen was the Red Terror in Hungary, or the fucking Khmer Rouge? Come on! Painting a pretty picture of humanism and righteousness over the harsh reality (a cold, calculated, struggle for global dominance) is ridiculous – you didn’t need to do that, Cenk didn’t pose the question, he just basically said “we done fucked up” re. Afghanistan, which was somehow enough for you to trot out those hollow excuses for a policy that has led to highly undesirable results in the long run.
That’s what led me to (speculatively) conclude that your military background has left that instinct deeply ingrained – the need to, when someone points out a strategic misstep – launch into a defensive muddying of the waters along the lines of “No, look, we had good reason, it was either that or we all end up in communist death camps, man!”
Beyond that, your claim that the Marshall Plan worked in Europe because post-war Germany was an economic powerhouse? Utterly ludicrous. As I’m sure you know, Germany was fucking leveled in the latter stages of the war – http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/out-of-the-ashes-a-new-look-at-germany-s-postwar-reconstruction-a-702856.html – and needed the reconstruction just as badly as if not worse than the rest of Europe
But it was what followed that bothered me the most – you stated that the Germans could have been built back up only because they were “disciplined fucking people” with whom the US shares an ethnic background. Unlike those fucking Middle-Easterners who will never get their shit together anyway, just look at them, the reasonable and intelligent ones migrated out of their shitholes long ago, and all that’s left are the idiots who drink the fanatics’ kool-aid. Wasn’t that your argument, more or less? It’s pure jingoism, or as those disciplined fucking Germans would say #kulturchauvinismus.
Your background, impressive as it is, does not make your half-baked arguments any stronger, even though Cenk certainly seems to think so. To me, those “18 years of nonstop exposure to the military in my house” spell out “bias” if anything. I could be wrong, maybe you made an effort to challenge the militaristic CW mindset that appears to have been prevalent in your surroundings and then came back to it later of your own volition. If so, I apologize for the assumption. Still doesn’t make you right, though.
Of course, I never claimed to be an expert. Anyone with a passing interest in European history can easily recognize the sheer insanity of the claim that the Spanish Inquisition was inspired by the Caliphate of Cordoba. Likewise, anyone with a passing interest in the history of the Middle East can recognize the staggering jingoism of the claim that “those people” are uncivilized because they never have been and never will be.
Why Cenk doesn’t bother to challenge some of the nonsense that you occasionally trot out is hard to understand – he challenges similar viewpoints when expressed by anyone else. But he idolizes you, man. He sees you as some sort of RW Sterling Archer and appears to be genuinely envious of the life you’ve led (in the friendliest way possible, of course: admiration is probably a better word for it than envy). That’s why you get a pass on TYT – your breadth of life experience, your work with the CIA, your dad, your confident manner of speech. If on the next episode of Old School you argued something utterly insane, for example, the US needs to nuke Antarctica because that’s where Putin is secretly building bases for the invading aliens, Cenk would just chuckle and go: “Well, I guess… agree to disagree? Whatta guy!”
Yes, let’s get into it. Frankly, I wish Cenk did challenge me more as I prefer reaching knowledge via the dialectic.
You’re right, Germany was leveled during the war – but it still had human capital and ingrained habits which evolved over centuries. You do realize we’ve spent more money trying to rebuild Afghanistan in real dollars than we did all of Europe during the Marshall Plan? Why didn’t it work?
I’m not defensively muddying the waters with communist death camp talk. It was a real issue. Most of this “arm the jihadis policy came about in the 70s. The Khmer Rouge was not some event way back in history, nor was the cultural revolution, nor was the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the collapse of Iran, Nicaragua etc… We were losing the Cold War up until the mid-80’s. I’m not sure your age but having grown up in that time, each year there was a new crisis and collapse of “the West”. It’s absolutely relevant to discuss not just the facts on the ground at the time but the mind set of people who made the policy decision which led to the disaster we see today in the Middle East.
My thoughts on the similarities between Spain’s colonization in the new world and the militarized spread of Islam are not thought “insane” by anyone with a passing knowledge of European history. There’s a really convincing argument for it by Nobel Laureate V.S. Naipaul in his book Among The Believers.
Now, on to the belief that I’m somehow racist against these “uncivilized” peoples. I believe anyone, from anywhere of any race can prosper under an effective system. I have a lot of Serbian, Greek, Iranian, Pakistani and Afghan friends who are very successful here in the states and yet their home countries cannot seem to get their shit together. The traditional power/cultural systems in these countries developed in response to the needs of the times but to a large extent don’t function anymore because times have changed. It’s not a judgement on the superiority of one “race” over another, it’s the acknowledgement that some societal systems/cultural habits function better than others in the modern world.
Growing up in the military effects you. Everyone’s dad I grew up with fought and lost in Vietnam. Most of that generation was bitter as hell. The advantage of growing up in that world is perspective, as you’re in a different place every two years. So I’d say I wasn’t blinded by it..
Rebuilding Europe in the aftermath of a global conflict isn’t really comparable to rebuilding Afghanistan in the middle of an ongoing local conflict. How well could Germany have been rebuilt if the Nazi remnants had just withdrawn east into Poland and kept things going for a decade or two? The amount of money spent isn’t the only factor. Europe was rebuilt into Europe after six years of warfare, while Afghanistan – after centuries of intermittent warfare – can only be rebuilt into Afghanistan, which is to say, into a state of perpetual civil unrest.
In that sense, I’m more with you than I am with Cenk whose idea of “just give ’em schools and internet access” is hopelessly idealistic (though I think he’s aware of that). The thing is, if you oppose him by saying “It’s just the way they are, the Germans were like us and those brownish guys aren’t, they’ll remain fucked up forever because their ways aren’t the modern ways,” you’re making it black and white. That view buttresses the sense of jingoistic superiority in potential Trump voters, who nod their heads confidently when they hear idiocy along the lines of “We just go in, take their oil, and get out!”
As an (also simplistic) alternative, I offer the “give them time” approach. Instead of attributing the state of failing countries to their traditional cultural systems, just recognize that they’re developing under unique circumstances, hindered by a variety of factors internal and external, so any chance of stabilization and real progress has to be far, far away. Expecting them to blossom after a few key changes are made is unrealistic, and switching gears every few years in an attempt to propel them forward faster can only be counterproductive. (Just like adopting a chauvinistic “That’s the way those guys are” attitude is counterproductive.) If you let them bumble their way into the future, there’s a half-chance they turn out OK. If you try to intervene militarily or politically every few years, you tend to get a series of setbacks and civil wars.
Which kind of sort of brings us (via Ukraine) to the outdated West-vs.-East perspective issue. You’re right, there’s value in discussing the mindset of the people who made certain historic decisions, but I don’t think it’s justified to assume that the decision-makers of the day were under the same influence of the media as the general populace was. It’s perfectly for a kid growing up in the Cold War state of mind to have had the sense that the Russians were coming, that the West was about to collapse, etc. But guys who actually wielded that propaganda? Should we assume that they totally meant it, that the phantom of communism was just as real to them? Or perhaps they used it as an excuse whenever they found it necessary. To me, saying “because communism!” back in the day sounds much the same as saying “because terrorism!” today: it’s fear-mongering, an excuse to do whatever the hell you want to do, a way to sell whatever you need to sell to the people – be it the Vietnam War or the Patriot Act.
Of course, I’m not dismissing the real historic threat of the USSR just as I wouldn’t dismiss the real threat of terrorism today. It’s just that, whenever I hear someone using it as the go-to excuse for just about anything, I’m inclined to disbelieve them and start thinking about alternative motives. Those phantoms, the way they’re presented to us, are too damn convenient.
Re. perspective & being blinded, I hope you’re right.
The Afghans have had near permanent civil unrest because their cultural loyalties are family and tribe as opposed to being able to build a modern state. We could poor another trillion dollars of development money into it and nothing would change.
The level of propaganda in the past was nowhere near as sophisticated or powerful as propaganda wielded today and if anything it was inverted to give the American people a more rosy view of the world than it actually was. The people at the top (I’m talking Presidents, SecDef, 4 stars etc. were expressing their genuine geostrategic fears. Was this put to private profit by the unscrupulous to take advantage of the situation? Of course. Was there an actual existential threat. Yes.
My personal view is that, short of stopping genocide, we shouldn’t be involved in the affairs of other nations ,certainly not politically but the world is moving in the opposite direction.
(We seem to have reached the bottom of the thread, since there’s no Reply link at the end of your last post, I’m replying to this one instead.)
It’s a chicken & egg situation with Afghanistan – are they perpetually at war because they’re a primitive tribal culture, or are they a primitive tribal culture because they’ve been perpetually at war? In either case, you need to pour money in there just to get them back to the state they were in when you started pouring in bombs the last time around. It won’t be a great state, it probably won’t fix much of anything, but a case could be made for some sort of moral obligation on USA’s part. Hypothetically, if each of the previous would-be conquerers wasted some money trying to shore things up after wrecking them, maybe it would be less of a hellhole today?
Agreed it’s a chicken and egg thing. It’s also a geography thing.
I don’t know if your plan could work without forcibly disarming the warlords. There’s also the problem with the elite having left the country over the last 40 years How can you rebuild a country when the educated have abandoned it?
“There’s also the problem with the elite having left the country over the last 40 years How can you rebuild a country when the educated have abandoned it?”
You have them educate some more? It takes ages, I know, but there probably isn’t a quick & easy fix available in most cases.
I mean, if it takes them a century – OK, that’s how long it takes. In the meantime you try to keep their shit contained so that it doesn’t spill out to complicate things regionally, and call it a day… A century, whatever.
It’s not perfect, but it’s cheaper and has a better chance of actually working than this endless run of interventions and shows of force and failing puppet governors.
Interesting! I have to disagree with Wes in the sense that… what, we can have like 5 puppet dictatorships in the Middle East that publicly behead people and stone women… but how dare the Soviets try to take a puppet state of their own! Those monsters…
Its the assumptions implicit in that perspective that are problematic. The people we supported brought tyranny and death, so arguing that it would have been worse without us displays the underlying arrogance of American policy.
Cenk i agree with building school and stuff and i believe let them governed themself is the right thing to do , but cenk plz dont do the paternalist thing that occidental government always want to do , the people of those countries their are not children , plz stop with the imperialist and colonial bullshit .
the West doesn’t have the answers ! remember the arabe world was booming with intellectual/science people before the get in contact with the west and everthing turn to shit , crusade in the middle age in the middle east , slavery , colony in africa asia plus slavery and genocide in america
Commenting on what Cenk and Wes were alluding to in 12:30
I was sitting at a workshop by one of the largest sustainability companies in the world and they already have plans on building a library of specific diets and meals singled out to one specific code, e.g “G75” which is tailored to your DNA make up. The video was shown as two men were ordering their meal based on these codes. This can be easily applied to supermarkets and everything else selling food products. In tandem with with nano machines that track your health this would mean that you could only have certain ‘unhealthy food’ allowances per certain amount of time. Scary world. Luckily we’re far off from but what was discussed is really nothing far from reality.
Jerry Lee Lewis did not marry a 15-year-old girl. He married his 13-year-old cousin.
2nd Cousin… Genetically a different level than 1st cousin.
LOL Sorry Third Cousin… Another order of magnitude removed.
Actually, first cousin once removed, according to Wikipedia. A little closer.
I also indeed like a lot of the statements/overall POV of Wes:
– Why should I care, what religion someone on the other side of the planet has?
– We should leave the ME immediately
– Every time you get yourself involved, you squeeze a hornets nest [regardless of your intentions]
– “Mild Interventionism” is just a remnant of neocolonialist policy
and maybe the most important point he made in this video:
– The people who are doing this, will do this no matter what, they will find a way to pervert secular ideas too…
I dare to interpret Sam Harris’ views on all those issues, but my personal hunch is, they disagree more on fundamental issues than Cenk and Sam actually, Cenk is more in between the too, but hey watch the Kyle’s interview with Sam and judge for yourself – I’d recommend paying attention to his position on the Chomsky rule in particular, but judge for yourself…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYUPr6cH294
Wes Clark Jr. and Sam Harris would be a super super interesting conversation that’s for sure!
I agree with dderss – the anti-russian bias is more and more obvious. I mean Wes said himself that Erdogan is or at least was an ISIS supporter, it’s also clear that Turkey is more interested in getting rid of Assad, than he is on fighting Islamists. He used his entrance into the war as excuse to bomb Kurds – the most effective force against ISIS. But you actually believe that Turkey shot down the plane to make a principled point about airspace violations? That’s absolutely ridiculous. Do you know that the “Turkmen” in Syria are not politically affiliated? Is that even realistic given all the different groups right now – and WHY were they shooting down the pilots? You said, it’s not OK, but why did they do it? I honestly believe that this area was controlled by al-Quaida, al-Nusra (Cenk in a show lately acknowledged that those indeed are at least part of the so-called “moderate rebels”, so what’s the problem with Russia bombing them? Really, we get angry with Russia, because they’re bombing al-Quaeda? It’s not like we wouldn’t know, what al-Quaeda would do, if they were in charge. Seriously, can the US government please clarify what’s the priority in this war: fighting ISIS, fighting Assad, securing access to oil, securing safe trade routes or what? And can TYT/the hosts please clarify what the priority should be, what their policy POV is on that issue?) and Erdogan got pissed, that this indirectly helps Assad, maybe even the Kurds (the most effective force against ISIS, actually), who still want to close their damned territory along the Turkish border – what they almost achieved, before Erdogan joined the war himself… Again, even the anti-Russian foreign minister of Germany said “There is only one unreliable player in the Middle-East and that’s Turkey, not Russia!” Why does TYT always ignore the European statements on those issues (Egypt, Ukraine, Syria, Iraq) – and I thought the US and the EU were supposed to be allies… Do you really think the Europeans are all biased, let alone pro-Russia, after all the cold-war experiences? Ridiculous! No it’s like always on all issues – Germans are blind to German propaganda, French are blind to French propaganda, Russians are blind to Russian propaganda and, I fear, Americans are blind to American propaganda – regarding domestic policies – not so much, but on foreign policy issues..? 90% of Germans think austerity is the right economic policy, 90% of Greeks think it’s wrong – 5 years before the crisis ~50% in both countries shared similar views on economic issues like that – coincidence or propaganda..?
could be explained just by run of the mill nationalism. people support their own countries interests, that shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone which is why you see such differing opinions on how to address international policy from country to country.
but the shift in the numbers is interesting – remind you that the answer of the question was “Is austerity is the right economic policy?”. So it’s not only nationalism, but blind, uninformed, nationalism and it seem to be less “countries interests” but whatever the government’s doing…
Well yes I agree, I would simply argue that most people view their government as representing their countries interests on the international stage (even if in reality they don’t) just like a family automatically supports the head of the house.
country’s’ yeah I never proof read
with or without the corrections :-) I get used to it: I agree!
We should be aware of it, is basically just what I’m saying :-)
I felt like making a tiny addendum to my last point
“Well yes I agree, I would simply argue that most people view their government as representing their country’s interests on the international stage (even if in reality they don’t) just like a family automatically supports the head of the house
lol sorry to do this again but my addendum did not get put in,
“Well yes I agree, I would simply argue that most people view their government as representing their country’s interests on the international stage (even if in reality they don’t) just like a family automatically supports the head of the house when dealing with other houses.”
Wes on Old School for the second week in a row?! Greatest Thanksgiving present ever.
Benjamin and Wesley are wrong about the plane, Eveт USA says that the Su-24 was downed in Syrian air space. Also, there is no confirmation that Su-24 actually violated Turkey’s air space, as their claims are nonsensical (like they warned the plane for 10 times during 5 minutes while the plane was supposedly in Turkish airspace only for few seconds, and plane speed they claim was also absurd: ~400 km/h).
Also, Turkmen that Russians are bombing in northern Syria belong to Free Syrian Army aka “We welcome ISIS brothers” (public statement of their commander) and Al-Nusra (Al-Qaeda). Of course, Western media never report that, so all guests here are deluded into thinking they are just “rebels” (“moderate”). Finally, it has to be noted that there are almost no civilian Turkmen for a long time already (they are among 11 million refugees withing/from Syria).
Also, it is sad that Cenk never mentions in his coverage what Wesley was talking about in the beginning — that Turkey finances and arms Daesh (ISIS), as well as Al-Qaeda (Al-Nusra), actually. So general TYT audience never knows who is USA’s actual ally and foe is in the Middle East.
In this way TYT is much worse than, say Democracy Now. They have no specific anti-Russian/slight neocon/interventionist agenda like Cenk does, so they report ALL facts, not a selection that manipulates viewers in certain way as per agenda.
“Also, it is sad that Cenk never mentions in his coverage what Wesley was talking about in the beginning — that Turkey finances and arms Daesh (ISIS), as well as Al-Qaeda (Al-Nusra), actually. So general TYT audience never knows who is USA’s actual ally and foe is in the Middle East.”
Agreed but I would chalk this up to Cenk wasting time feuding with people making those type of points instead of making them himself.
“Trump is like Putin, like Erdogan”?
This is again Cold War era anti-Russian insanity speaks in Cenk,
There is nothing what resembles Putin in how Trump behaves or his policies. Erdogan does seem similar partly to Trump, because of way he hold himself and what he says and how he acts.
Putin is highly intelligent calculating internationalist politician. Despite all the “super man” jokes about him, he is never buffoon like clown, or “mad dog” like Erdogan (the nickname he has). Putin is internationalist and he supports all major religions as well as secularism and non-sectarianism, unlike Trump or Erdogan which either hate other religions or want to install specific religions.
Putin is authoritarian (let alone the fact that he is cynical corrupt politician, like almost all of politicians are), but he never acted in dictatorial/totalitarian way, unlike how Trump and Erdogan behave.
Terrific show. Informative and funny.
Random (and untrue) shot at Cleveland, though!
Any body here seeing an issue with the download?
More Wes! West Point Clark, the king of ‘Wes’teros, and songwriter extraordinaire.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sozT-fnNyRk
Absolutely!
There’s also a song about Dick Cheney https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib_NFl6yeAY
Are those two the only songs he’s written?
Don’t worry about your wife catching you with the porn goggles on, she’ll be wearing hers fucking virtual George Clooney.
Only been a member for 6 months but I anoint this the best Old School of all time. TYT, please add Wes to the Old School hosts. Cenk, Ben and Wes make a great on air team. Of coarse I’m biased as I’m in the same age bracket as those Old Fuck’s, lol.
Well shit that was awesome! More Wes Clark please! He makes it even better!
Investing a seed to progress the Middle East towards a culture of secularism and more civil society is going to be helped out by education being paid by the country that broke the previous equilibrium (US) and Cenk is right about that, but Wes is right about that it can’t be fixed by that sort of aid as well.
If Arnold Schwarzenegger were to learn Arabic and Persian, he would be able to be push that the region needs to get to where they were before the rise of Wahhabism. His “self-help-book” personal accountable outlook on life coupled with being an internationally recognizable action hero and machismo persona would be a force for good in the region. The fact that he is an immigrant and successful both in acting and real estate in America is a great case study for tolerance, secularism, and mixed economy that exists in America is in additional to his ability to access a population that idolizes him from the man-ly roles he has portrayed. He’s not ideal politically from a American point of view, but he’s ideal messenger to counter the religious militants that the Cold War raised up.
that was so great c:
Today’s episode was great. Massively random set of topics but all really interesting. No sure what’s better, face-stroking or international politics.
Honestly, I didn’t really care about the whole “my wife did this, my wife did that” stuff. Once they switched to politics, it was fantastic.
LMFAO @ Harris supporting Ben Carson over Noam Chomsky (Still LMFAO LOL). How does harris have any credibility left in anyones eyes? LOL
http://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/on-the-maintenance-of-civilization
He explains the controversy at 1:55:00. Listening to him will be easier than arguing with you.
What happened to last week’s installment~?
I’m thankful for TYT~!
UPAYA
Ok here we go! TYT OLD SCHOOL! I can’t wait to see if Sam Harris is mentioned here too :)
He did it! at 1::01:30
1:20:20 Oh I love Wes
Oh sorry it’s more around 1:20:15
LOL! He’s like a scorned ex-lover at this point!
lol because he is, Wes Clark totally shut him down and his backward thinking. Wes would totally be on Sam’s side if Wes actually knew his positions, which made it nice to see that neither Ben nor Wes joined Cenk on his rant.
It was also amazing to see Cenk literally has no idea what his critics think as he is not even aware of the definition of the regressive left. And then he goes on to say “we are way more liberal than them”, perfect insight into his mind.
The Cenk Guide- “Ignore critics, puff chest and shout ‘I am the best liberal’, silence and attack those who disagree, mischaracterize opponents into straw men so they can be whacked away in an angry shouting tirade not actually faithfully engage with any arguments.”
Watch the Ann Coulter Politicon debate, I am in no way a fan of Ann Coulter but I was at least curious how she would argue her points but Cenk continuously showed his colors by resorting to the crowd. He really had nothing substantive to say, he would just take Ann’s words and repackage them to make her sound like a monster and she called him out on it and I was siding with her even though I disagree with nearly everything she stands for.
I’m so glad you brought up the Politicon debate because I hate Ann Coulter and her ilk but I’m always open to new ideas through debate and dialogue. Unfortunately, Cenk resorted to making jokes about Ann, twisting her words and playing to the crowd like you said. It was sad to see a rather liberal crowd become an angry lynch mob. Playing to someones emotions is the dirtiest trick in the book and seeing Cenk doing it so blatantly was incredibly disappointing.
About Wes, I’m guessing he was hesitant to completely disagree with Cenk about Sam but I think you’re right about him being more open to facts. I’m also getting a little tired, like you, about Cenk constantly bringing up Sam! It’s the 3rd episode in a row he’s done it now and I feel he’s still a little annoyed that he got grief from people he felt were 100% on his side. Like some people on the comment section believe, I don’t dislike Cenk. I love TYT but I just happen to have a tiny difference of opinion on this single subject. That’s all.
Complete ditto! And I’m one who watches the best of Ann Coulter clips and laughs at her insane comments but Cenk should have responded with more than just trying to publicly shame her, he didn’t even try to moderate the crowd, he riled them up constantly and never asked her a real question other than asking her to justify quotes from her books.
You’re right about the 1:20:15 reference, Wahhabism is the root of the jihadist problem, of course not the people but the jihadist ideology that’s at the root of it, including the people who were brainwashed and propagandized to adhere to the ideology.
What exactly do you think Islam is outside of Jihadism? Do you think this is some liberal ideology spreading liberalism throughout the world? No. It’s a conservative traditionalist ideology (that stole most of it’s stories from christian and jewish books I might add) that claims to be the last revelation and the last true word of god.
It says live this way explicitly and don’t listen to those outside the religion. Mohammed was not an admirable fellow, he was a warlord who killed all the other aspiring religious prophets and took child sex slaves but people worship his memory because of how successful he was conquering and subjugating his enemies.
Muslims living in the western secular world hold western secular values and I’m not talking about them but muslims from the muslim majority countries often have to live under religious law and hold very different attitudes towards religion, for them it is not a weekend recreational convenience, it is a way of life that they have been brainwashed into for more than a hundred generations. It doesn’t mean they are all bad people, I think they would probably be good people if they didn’t feel so pressured into following religious myths that made illiberal/authoritarian demands.
it’s a rare moment when we agree so i gotta give it to ya when we do :)
I agree with Wes, he is very insightful and realistic. Cenk is a little too idealistic and jingoistic. Cenk is good a puffing himself up like he’s an expert but I love how Wes never backs down from the puffing. John gives in to the Puff, Jimmy gives in to the Puff, Ben moderately fights the Puff but Wes annihilates the Puff.
4-day weekend, Thanksgiving and a new episode of Old School?! The Gods have truly spoken!!